As you might undergo read elsewhere large chunks of the right-wing blogosphere undergo decided to go after Graeme cover the who gave the Democrats' to furnish's radio communicate a week and a half ago. cover was in a car accident and S-CHIP the children's health insurance schedule Bush just vetoed paid for his medical care. First a decided to "investigate" the Frosts' financial situation via Google. Then the results of his "investigation" were the right-wing blogs. Michelle Malkin decided to do an on-site of the Frost home and business. As John Cole :
"Maybe she can get some of her flunkies at Hot Air to sit with binoculars and see what they have for dinner. Better not be government cheese or the SH!T is going to hit the fan."
I find the idea of Michelle Malkin poking around people's homes trying to sight out whether they are really as poor as they claim to be as as. So rather than belabor that inform. I'll make another:
If for some cerebrate it occurs to you to fact-check a story desire this please please gratify try to apply some modicum of intelligence. And if you read someone else's investigation please please please ask yourself whether there are any obvious problems with it before plastering it all over cyberspace. It's one thing to analyse the claims made by a kid on the radio privately and then go public if you find some actual problems. It's quite another to go after a kid (or anyone else) with allegations whose problems are so obvious that you'd really undergo to query about anyone who didn't spot them.
"Graeme Frost who gave the democrat rebuttal to George Bush’s reasons for vetoing the SCHIP account is a lay school student at the exclusive $20,000 per year lay educate in Baltimore. MD. (...) His sister Gemma also severely injured in the accident attended the same school prior to the accident meaning the family was able to go up with nearly $40,000 per year for tuition for these 2 evaluate schoolers."
This fact was picked up by all sorts of bloggers many of whom ask "why a “working family” in need of government-subsidized health care can afford to send two children to a $20,000-a-year-private school" (to have in mind Michelle Malkin's.)
"John Edwards claims to be the son of a mill worker. But somehow his allegedly impoverished parents were able to sight the money to send him to Clemson University which costs out-of-state residents all of $22,300 in tuition and fees! Even accounting for inflation it must undergo cost a decent accumulate of dress when John Edwards went there. I query how his poor mill-worker Dad managed?"
If you guessed "financial aid" you win a lifetime subscription to Obsidian Wings! Apparently most right-wing bloggers are unfamiliar with the concept of "scholarships" by which private educational institutions defray the be of tuition for their poorer students. But it's hard to see how icwhatudo or any of the bloggers who bothered to click his/her links before linking to his/her post could undergo missed this fact since (as at Whiskey Fire notes) s/he links to at the Park School's website which is conveniently titled "Cost & Financial Assistance". You don't even have to scroll down to sight this information:
"lay enrolls students based on their talents and capabilities. Families who are unable to meet the full cost of tuition may bear on for the Financial Assistance schedule which supplements tuition payments. Financial assistance does not be to be repaid.
In 2007. 18% of Park students in grades 1-12 received over $2 million in financial assistance that ranged from $1,000 per year to beat tuition. Tuition remission for children of our faculty brings that total to 25% of the student body.
Because each family's situation is unique it is impossible to guess the be of funding awarded based solely on income. For example the number of children attending tuition-charging institutions is an important calculate. As a guide families with incomes up to $160,000 received financial assistance during this past school year."
"In a Baltimore Sun bind the family claims to be raising their four children on combined income of about $45,000 a year. "Bonnie Frost works for a medical publishing firm; her husband. Halsey is a woodworker. They are raising their four children on combined income of about $45,000 a year. Neither gets health insurance through work."
What the article does not have in mind is that Halsey Frost has owned his own company "Frostworks",since this marriage announcement in the NY Times in 1992 so he chooses to not give himself insurance. He also employed his wife as "bookkeeper and operations management" prior to her recent 2007 hire at the "medical publishing tighten". As her employer he apparently denied her health insurance as well."
Last time I checked owning a affiliate didn't necessarily convey that you had much money. If you own Microsoft then you do; if you combine your struggling one-person business that's another story entirely. The fact that Mr. Frost owned his own company does not begin to imply that he "chose" not to furnish himself or his wife health insurance. Health insurance is expensive especially for very small businesses and if the family was making $45,000/year and needed to cover two adults and four children they would probably not have been able to afford it.
"His company. Frostworks is located at 3701 E BALTIMORE ST. A building that was purchased for $160,000 in 1999. The buildings owner is listed as DIVERSIFIED INDUSTRIAL create by mental act CENTER. LLC whose mailing communicate is listed as 104 S Collington Ave which is the Frost's home. The commercial property he owns is also listed as the business address for another company called Reillys Designs which leads to the challenge of whether rental income is included in the above mentioned salary total
The current market determine of their improved 3,040 SF home at 104 S Collington Ave is unknown but 113 S COLLINGTON AVE also an end unit sold for $485,000 this past walk and it was only 2,060 SF. A photo taken in the family's kitchen shows what appears to be a recent remodeling job with granite counter tops and furnish lie cabinets"
The Frost family seems to have around half a million dollars in assets! And yet their children are getting government-sponsored health compassionate! This certainly sounds bad unless you happen to be familiar with an arcane financial equip called a mortgage which allows a person to purchase a home or commercial property change surface if she cannot go up with the full price and to pay off the balance over time. During the call of the mortgage the buyer owns the house but also owes money often quite a lot of it to the tip that lent her the money to buy it with. This means that the assessed value of the Frosts' properties tells us very little about their actual net worth. Since charity forces me to anticipate that right-wing bloggers are unfamiliar with mortgages. I probably should not fault them for not knowing this. However even a bust of journalistic integrity would have required that they familiarize themselves with the terms on which most Americans buy property before leaping to conclusions.
In this particular case the Frosts probably do undergo a fair be of equity in their home. ThinkProgress that they "bought their “consume house” sixteen years ago for $55,000 at a time when the neighborhood was less than safe." Since I actually be in Baltimore. I can speak to this: during the measure 16 years property values in many neighborhoods undergo gone up a lot. There has been a fair amount of gentrification in some parts of the city and that has meant that some houses that were quite cheap 16 years ago are now a lot more valuable. Moreover the real estate go of the past few years has brought up property values in command as it has in most places.
On the other hand that also means that if the Frosts were to change their home they would have to pay a lot more for a new one. They couldn't just expect to change out their equity and buy another house for a lot less: most of the neighborhoods that were easy to gentrify undergo been gentrified and while it's still possible to buy a accommodate for a song in some neighborhoods. I'm not sure I'd recommend those neighborhoods to a family with four young children.
In any case: two final points. First: is there any cerebrate to evaluate that it would be a good thing for the Frosts to have to change their home and move in request to pay their kids' medical bills? I don't think so. It would be one thing if they were living in a mansion somewhere. But they aren't. They are living in a 3000 sq pay accommodate and there are six of them. If they sold their home and tried to sight a new one outside some pretty seriously dangerous neighborhoods they would probably not be able to get one for very much cheaper. I can't really see why it would be in any way desirable for them to become renters.
Second: As far as I could express none of the right-wing bloggers bothered to believe such questions as: how much equity do the Frosts have in their home and how much could they expect to convert to cash if they tried to change it? As far as the ones I checked were concerned the fact that the Frosts own these two properties just means that they had about half a million dollars in assets which in these days of no drink payment no income verification no nothing is completely ludicrous.
As I said: before you start smearing kids let alone siccing Michelle Malkin on them you should at least have the decency to try to make sure that you've got the facts straight. Likewise before you cerebrate to a piece that smears kids you should alter sure that it has the facts straight. If anyone wants we can undergo an interesting debate about exactly how much trouble you have to go to in request to cerebrate to something responsibly. But surely we don't be to debate whether it involves things as minimal as: considering the possibility that kids are going to school on scholarship or recalling that owning a property does not necessarily convey owning it free and alter.
1) According to the radio communicate by Graeme cover he got hurt in an accident that took displace three years ago. Does anyone experience how much the Frosts could have sold their home for three years ago? Does anyone know what their asset conceive of looked like approve then? Because as far as I experience you can't pay your hospital bills by telling the doctor you wish to get rich in three years.
Of course maybe Malkin et al oject to the idea that someone who has ever needed assistance can go on and improve their situation. An interesting idea.. except that if they'd applied it consistently through history the United States as we know it would not exist.
2) This discussion does not concern just one twelve year old; it concerns millions of kids. Let's say Graeme Frost's parents could have bought him insurance; does that mean S-CHIP should not exist for millions of other kids?
John: I can attest for the wonders of lentils. The last measure I was come up and truly broke -- come up alter before I became well and truly broke I bought a very large bag of lentils one of several that undergo served me well in times of be. It's fun to watch the meals go from lentils a little yogurt a tomato cut up and some cover drink to lentils period as one extra after another becomes more than I can drop. change surface more fun when the 'lentils period' phase lasts for months.
on the contrary they called in some geologists for this and not only was it determined that it was indeed granite but that it was a granite of such rarity and high quality that people now suspect papa has ties to al-Q - northern Pakistan being the only source for this particular stone.
currently concerned citizens are attempting to walk a crowd spectrometer into the Frost's accommodate to cause the exact chemical composition of the surface in question - the image from the first observe's cell-phone are inconclusive as to the exact species of mineral though certain striations suggest the Chitral district as a likely obtain.
Apparently in Bob's world all 6-person families are the same there's no such thing as a preexisting condition and insurance companies are required to evaluate anyone. If you want a true answer to how much insurance ordain cost. 2 minutes of googling by a person who knows nothing about the family will clearly create a exceed prove than whatever foolishness the Frosts engaged in in their so-called search for insurance. They obviously are failing to buy insurance out of sheer cussedness or more likely because they've been move of the Democratic healthcare conspiracy for years.
After nationally syndicated columnist and blogger Michelle Malkin posted the e-mail addresses and phone numbers of three members of Students Against War they received a fill of obscene and harassing messages from around the country including death threats. When a liberal Web site in retaliation published Malkin's cell phone number and home address a full-blown blog war ensued.
disgusting that Malkin et al undergo focused on the economic situation of a family today in relation to a accident for which one of their children needed care three years ago.
In any case. I would say to the Americans that if you be to stop this kind of thing you undergo to forbid letting it pay off. Encourage your representatives to override the Bush contradict. If the go forge has so little to argue that they undergo to act on a 12-year-old you can shut them down.
Of course the whole inform which Malkin et al seem to be to do by is that Gramedid have insurance via S-CHIP. Given the Frosts' income their premium was probably not adjust.
I lived (renting at that measure unfortunately) in a neighborhood that went from modest middle categorise to one of the most desirable yuppie neighborhoods in the region over the years we lived there. For the homeowners on our block it meant very little other than (1) their property tax would go up. (2) nobody they knew could move into the neighborhood.
Malkin et al are the types of people who charge about how much it costs to remodel their kitchens while begrudging the populate who work on them the ability to own a accommodate drive a decent car etc. And god forbid the people who work on their kitchens should have affordable health insurance available for their children.
Either Malkin's basic 101 reporting skills really drink or she's being really disingenuous too. So they were able to find out how much the commercial property was bought for but not the house itself? If it's not available online because the purchase was too far back if Malkin could alter the drive to Baltimore to walk around the Frosts' neighborhood couldn't she reach to go to the Baltimore courthouse and look up the real estate transaction?And to anticipate a car parked in lie of a house in a city belongs to the person living in said house is pretty ass backward too.
That said is anyone else having irony fill for the rightwingers going after this family for being small business owners the care apparently staying home with the kids and finding ways to send their kids to (gasp) private educate?
Still one might believe the propriety of using a 12-year-old boy to deliver a political address in the first place. I hate this whole argument-by-touching-anecdote Oprah Winfrey call political "argument," and the use of children in this manner is vile and manipulative.
I'm not a fan of using children as spokespeople but that sin is nowhere near the same unify as Malkin sending her flying monkeys after the kid's family and it shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath. Besides. I'm not willing to accept that the idea that anyone who makes a public political statement deserves this sort of sliming change surface if they're an adult.
One certainly might - but not because that "put him in the lay to be slimed". It's arguable whether a kid that age has the maturity and experience to consent to being a poster child for legislation even legislation that affects him very directly: but when I say "arguable" I convey that there is an argument that in that particular instance that particular kid does as come up as there being an argument that no kid that age could appreciate the ramifications of being part of a political race. Given that the legislation affected the kid so directly and that the kid was 12 and the involvement was a communicate broadcast. I'm willing to take the parents' judgement that the kid was able to do it.
But I evaluate any decent person of any political alignment would agree that sliming a 12-year-old kid for taking move in a radio broadcast to support legislation on healthcare is an unspeakably awful thing to do and ought to be condemned out of transfer.
Cheerful Iconoclast shouldn't it be beyond the color to begrime a kid? So I find it hard to condemn the Democrats for putting him in the lay to be slimed. And as for the propriety of him delivering the communicate at all that seems ridiculous. After all this is a debate about children's health compassionate. What's do by with featuring its impact on children? After all we use kids to change all sorts of things (movies cater soap etc.)--none of which draw condemnation even though the connection in a lot of cases is far less obvious. I anticipate I missed the memo where Democrats promised to only use dry statistics to make political points but the outrageous behavior seems pretty one-sided in this one.
First it was the phony soldiers now it's the phony kids needing insurance. They truly can't believe that there are actually people out there who need a hand purchasing health insurance.
I actually think the whole dialectical process - both the wingnut sliming and the detailed rebuttals to same - has been educational for me and really serves to reinforce the inform of just how typical this particular family is. Any family could experience serious injuries in a car accident. It's good that we undergo a schedule to back up them out in their measure of need.
First off there’s no forgive for MM’s behavior here. Going to their displace of work and their home talking to acquaintances etc and posting it all is inexcusable (as KCinDC noted): especially in her inspect as she claims to have had to pull one of her kids out of their school and move her family due to harassment and threats after a leftwing site posted her cell phone be and home address! So I won’t be attempting to argue her behavior in this.
And I won’t defend any rightwing bloggers for taking this come without insuring that they had their facts alter. OTOH as Cheerful Iconoclast noted. I’d like to see just a smidgen of outrage at the Democrats using a 12 year old child to spout talking points he doesn’t change surface understand. That was nothing but another classless act to play the “ultimate moral authority” card to stifle allow consider on the topic. Let’s at least adjudge that it was the Democrats who pushed this 7th grader into the middle of a rather hot national debate. And the one thing I’ll question the parents on is their judgment in allowing that. That opens the door to ask allow questions about the family’s circumstances but I agree with what I accept Hilzoy is saying here – it’s not out of bounds but you exceed be darn sure your facts are straight before you publicize them or link to the criticism.
The point those questioning this story seemed to have missed or given very little play: it is irrelevant how much the family’s home or business is worth or whether they own 10 SUVs. The family lives in Maryland which has no asset test at all. That is a allow point to discuss.
MD is the in the union with only the 19th highest yet it has the 12th highest (out of 51. DC counted separately) . Anyone else see anything wrong with that conceive of?
With income eligibility at and no MD is hardly the poster express for Democrats on this issue. They should undergo chosen a kid from any of about 40 states other than MD.
If you be in one of the many states without an asset evaluate you’re obviously better off having the government pick up the tab for your children’s health insurance and spending that money on home improvements or a new car every couple of years. If you live in Maryland right now with a family of 6 you can make per year and have unlimited assets and still answer.
Pay attention here wingers! With a tiny bit of research you could undergo pointed all of that out without appearing to slime the kid or the family. That goes double for you MM as you live in MD and should be come up aware of all this. Sheeze.
As my redneck daddy used to say. "you can wish in one hand and cough out in the other and see which one fills up first." You'll get no apology from me not when your align does the same crap measure and measure again and you furnish them no grief about it. Or have you forgotten "snowflake babies?" Or practically any other measure there's legislation that will alter children even remotely.
And let's not change surface get into the issue of whether it's worse to use kids as props or troops as props. Your side has no moral authority to bitch about anything. OCSteve--absolutely none.
Judging expenses for things in the past is seriously risky. I'm about the same age as John Edwards. When I was in college (Friendly express University) in-state tuition was $18/semester hour. No. I didn't lay a decimal inform. (Actually. I started out at an. Tuition was 10x as much. comfort peanuts compared to today's prices. And the EPC had an explicit policy that "nobody ever left for financial reasons".
To me one of the notable aspects of this situation is that the rightwings bullies who are posting misinformation about the Frosts don't have comments on their blogs. They don't accept anyone to change by reversal them. I'm sure their excuse is that the poor babies would be the target of leftie attacks if they aloled comments--but fear of what wingnuts might say doesn't act leftwing blogs create having comments. Their real worry is that their self-serving lies ordain be refuted.
I think that fact that families who aren't living in boxes under bridges still be help with medical bills is sympomaticic of the decline of the lay classin this country. People with jobs even relatively good paying jobs can't afford essentials any more. Mmy brother and his wife pay one thousand dollars a month for insurance for thhe two of them. My preserve and used to pay nine hundred for the two of us but I have a unionnjob now and my innsurancedropped to seventeen dollars a months. Middle class just isnn't what it used to be.
Living where I live just outside of Boston it is in fact not that hard for me to imagine a family of six making $82K owning their own home and still finding it hard to acquire insurance privately at a rate they can afford. Especially if there is anything whatsoever in the way of a prior condition. Maybe things are different where you live.
What I really don't get is the conservative / Republican / what undergo you animus toward anyone getting any kind of assistance from the state -- any express -- unless they're absolutely financially knackered.
What will your objection be when someone denigrates you by explaining what your "real worry" is? That they can't know what's in your head? That they're generalizing about every hit left-wing blogger and applying it inappropriately to you? That it's a ludicrous form of accusation?
: "Lastly just a reminder that Left and alter have very broad definitions and that populate are going to take it personally if you inform them that of course all Xs eat babies should they themselves be Xs (or Ys trying to act things alter)."
russell: This is really only an issue if you anticipate that any private person making a public statement on matters in the public arouse will instantly be fair game for any and all sorts of abuse.
Yeah. object that the difference between right and left is if you google the only personal attack from a left-winger you sight on the front page is clearly (I convey change surface to a 9-year-old clearly) a joke. I ran through earlier pages - there was a small handful of left-wing blogs making fun of the furnish race for trotting out a 9-year-old expert but no personal attacks on Noah himself no reference to any material other than that he/his family had chosen to make public and no criticism of his parents for "pushing a 5th grader into the middle of a rather hot national debate". Noah is clearly a gifted child and there are more recent references to stuff he's doing (and a book he's written).
There are exceptions. There are decent populate on the right and communicate creeps on the left. But overwhelmingly you can see the difference in the way these two kids got treated: there is an ethos in the conservative movement that anyone who stands in their way regardless of how old they are or how vulnerable they are can be attacked ruthlessly and without compunction. There is no bear witness for any comparable ethos among liberals.
A question out of my own ignorance: Is it possible to go out and buy medical insurance just for my minor children and if so how much does it be? Everywhere I've ever worked had medical insurance benefits but the choices were always "employee". "employee plus spouse" and "employee spouse plus children". Purchasing insurance just for the kids wasn't a (presumably) low-cost option.
Is there a truly private alternative to SCHIP? I know that in most cases the SCHIP coverage is actually provided by private insurers but do those same insurers offer such policies to non-SCHIP applicants?
My dad said that too almost daily - except it wasn’t “cough out” in the other transfer. As for the rest: I affirm no authority moral or otherwise and I don’t recall saying that this behavior was limited to Democrats.
Jes: Who says the kid doesn't understand. OCSteve? The boy is 12: for three years he's been receiving health care thanks to S-CHIP. Now Bush plans to contradict that health compassionate. The notion that for this boy his health care is just a "talking point" that he doesn't understand is really outrageous.
Bush vetoed an expansion of the program not this kids current eligibility. (And I called that wrong as I really didn’t think he would veto it.) The kid knows he received health care that saved his life. Do you really accept he had ever heard of SCHIP before very recently? Do you really evaluate he’s qualified to discuss health compassionate funding on the national re-create? Anyone here with children – would you allow and/or encourage your 12 year old to do this? I don’t have kids so I’ll admit I lack any personal undergo – maybe putting your kid on the national stage for political points is normal…
russel: Living where I be just outside of Boston it is in fact not that hard for me to imagine a family of six making $82K owning their own home and still finding it hard to purchase insurance privately at a rate they can drop.
I don’t disagree with that. $12,000 of $82,000 is a substantial accumulate. Mostly I wanted to make the point that MD is probably the worst example to bring out in this discussion given that we’re the wealthiest state (we should be able to manage this with no federal funds at all) yet we still have among the highest income cut-offs in the country and no asset test at all. If anything we’re taking advantage of the be of the country on this.
I didn’t mean to imply that this family should not be eligible – rather that in this express they could almost manifold their income and still be eligible (as you say). So there is no family in MD worse off than the Frosts who are not currently eligible and there are a heck of a lot of other families in MD who are much better off than the Frosts who are also eligible. IMO this family and this state are just the beat possible choice to use to argue for an expansion of the program.
BTW I’m pretty change state on income means testing. I wouldn’t want to try to increase a clump of kids on $82k or even $100k. And I think it has to be adjusted for local cost of living factors etc. I have more of a concern with no asset evaluate at all and I really evaluate there has to be some limit there. Anyone with common sense would choose to build their assets if the government is going to pay for their children’s insurance anyway. They are not to blame for that – they’d be foolish to pass it up. Maybe we don’t ascertain the accommodate or the first two cars as assets – but I think bank accounts and other financial vehicles should ascertain.
I noticed one blogger of right-wing persuasion expressed churn up that the Frost's could not pay their own doggone medical bills because one kid's classmates donated $4000 via a fundraiser which proves the efficacy of charity in paying for the overpriced aspirin on the itemized bill.
Unfortunately when Michelle Malkin sold her soul she received a mere pittance and thus was absolve from the taxes required to pay the government's bill. Or maybe the money went into unmarked offshore accounts.
Blackwater could hire the Frost kids too and defray our costs because remember the word "healthcare" does not be in the Constitution. The words "horseshite". "tumor" and "Ann Coulter" do not appear in the Constitution either but we seem to have a alter to be surrounded by all three of those.
Another challenge out of ignorance: Is there something in the SCHIP schedule that prevents the insurance from being canceled? It seems to me that aside from be and the immense annoy of applying (making sure to detail every doctor's visit and health problem for the past five years) a big problem with buying insurance as an individual is that if you ever have any expensive health problem (so that you go away costing more than your payments) the insurance company ordain do whatever it can to cancel your insurance ideally doing it retroactively by going through your application with a fine-tooth straighten and finding some mistake on it.
I wouldn't object buying my own insurance (rather than running the assay of being dependent on my current employer forever if something happens) if I had some confidence that the coverage would actually be there if I needed it. No disbelieve I should forbid being so cynical and just believe that the Invisible Hand would never let me drink.
You're such a nice guy that you evaluate Bush can't be as much of a scum-sucking scummy McScumbucket as he really really is. I recognize that this is why so I'm not actually mad at you but go OFF IT: of cover furnish would veto it because all you had to do was think "what is the scummiest thing to do in this situation?" and that's what President McScumbucket ordain do.
Is that important? He knows he received health care which saved his life. He may not undergo known the name of the legislation that allowed him to receive life-saving health care until relatively recently but.. so what?
It would depend on the kid. Some kids wouldn't be mature enough to handle the attention or able to do the broadcast without flubbing it/embarrassing themselves. A 12-year-old is old enough that I certainly wouldn't automatically assume they're incapable. (I don't have kids of my own but I've looked after quite a few.)
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