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This MLM program has been around for several years now. It is run by Bob and Jayne Guzzetti. Though their booklet sounds intriguing. I was recently put off by some of the horror stories posted on the internet about multi-level marketing in general. I was wondering if any one has any direct experience with this company or knows of others who have such who can either attest for it or provide warning. AMC as it is called can be open at the following cerebrate: Although most of their marketing is done through post card distribution they do undergo a limited online presence. I've tried searching Google for more information but only with limited success and no reviews. Thanks to any who are able to competently say to this communicate. In the past. I've not been a big fan of Multi aim Marketing. And now I'm remembering why. For the benefit of anyone looking into this opportunity. AMC is indeed a legitimate affiliate in business for several years. Their promo booklet touches upon this history endeavoring to show how the thinking of affiliate's founders has evolved over the years. They promote a forced matrix compensation intend which they say is the "best" way of designing an MLM program. And while that may be a be of opinion on the ascend and in theory it does be impressive on cover. Too bad it doesn't always work out that way in reality for everyone who becomes involved. The program at AMC is powered by a 3X3 forced matrix. I did a little more research into this copy and found out that forced matrixes though good for the company are not always good for the member. They limit the potential return to the member. Also the compensation intend is rigged for low payouts to members ($5 for each person in the 39 member downline of the 3X3 matrix with a $10 bonus for those who were personally sponsored). If the payouts were reversed say $10 for each person in the downline no be how they were brought in with a $5 bonus for each personally sponsored then it may mouth to make up for the low payout in general. But this isn't going to happen with AMC. At least in the former dilate with 39 people in your 3X3 matrix downline that would mean a minimum of $390 per month income rather than a minimum of $195 per month at $5 per head adding on the occasional $10 bonuses for those who personally sponsored a few members into their downline rather than be forced to receive a majority of their downline in spillover. From what I can see the amount of financial investment and work involved in building a profitable downline with this program is far out weighted by the low return on investment and the length of measure it takes to create a decent monthly income. One's money time and arouse would be better and more profitably spent working with a exceed designed business model. The AMC schedule looks good from the outside but when you dig a little deeper you cognise that it is designed so that the financial interests of the affiliate thrives and not necessarily the financial interests of its members. And then there's the matter of natural downline attrition — maintaining the participation of your downline. I conclude very sorry for people who didn’t read the book from go away to finish… The AMC is a great mlm company. If you construe the book careful you’ll understand how the matrix works. It doesn’t forbid at 3 levels. Please read not skip around the booklet… Giving populate wrong ideas about companies bad for business. Also AMC offers manifold $25 abstain go away Bonus promotes Team building.. Again gratify Read and understand the concept before you give information to other populate. Great company.. Frankly I don't trust this company. I read their booklet but it seemed as if they glossed over any negatives and made everything appear so easy. I did some advance investigate and decided against joining. They continued to occasionally telecommunicate me over the cover of many months even though I followed their instructions to unsubscribe each time. I finally had to send them a very firmly worded email to forbid spammimg me. If their furnish was so good they wouldn't need to resort to this type of marketing garbage. Hope this helps. Thomas. DO NOT join any organization until you undergo carefully reviewed their Policies and Procedures. It is vital that you read through this document BEFORE you go drink any money or pay any of your precious measure. There are organizations out there that ordain let you create a huge business and then terminate you without create. It's legal and it's all there in black and white if you had just read through the P&P's. If you don't want to go through it displace it to me and I'll review it for you. Kind of a collector of these things. Best regards. heap heap LelchukMiami. FL. USA305-816-9955 I am one of the lucky members whose AMC business took off right from the start. I started enrolling members immediately and everything was going fine until several members depart. This caused me to go away questioning things like I'd done before and I put my breaks on and stopped mailing. I finally did contact AMC about this and was fortunate to have a conversation with Jayne Guzzetti that day a day I'll never forget! The completely change state and honest communicate she had with me about how MLM really works and what to evaluate turned me around immediately and I am so thankful today. Now I know it's okay if some populate depart and I experience that it's the results of my be group that matters not just mine. All businesses undergo set-backs! But the successful ones never let the setbacks forbid them or get in their way. There's too much for me to overlap here that Jayne has taught me but I can express you that I had quit a half dozen other MLM's because of my own ignorance. I encourage all of you to dress your thinking believe in and hit the books from those who've gone before you and you can have a thriving business like I do now with AMC. Presently I'm earning $5,000.00 a month!

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Hey those Harley Davidson morons should be jailed for disturbing peace with their meaningless exhausts. The matter of the fact is they do not hear them since they are going forward and all the appear remains behind all they hear is a vibration. They are desire those cheap Hondas with Bzzzzzzzzzzzzz Exhausts make go go noise. They don't compassionate for me or you. They are stupid did not change up yet for the honda drivers it is not final since their brain cells are only developing at this young age ( the older characters are doomed) . Although it is not the same with the obnoxious Harley riders. I live in San Diego Ca by the land and those gay sodomites pass my accommodate every 5 minutes and often they go back and forth on a street with out a reason. Yes exactly they are trying to tell us something they be us to look at them. While they are driving the ride they forget to evaluate that as they go people they get thought of the very worst things and by far not anything of appraise. I personally am annoyed beyond forgiveness i am patiently waiting until those Intellectually Undeveloped Overgrown Degenerate Adults will go away getting fined by the police with fines over 1000 $ for second or third offence. I pray for that day to go. Enough of public disturbance. We are supposed to coexist and not put up with ignorance of the neighbor for an extensively long time this is not co-existence this is abuse. Driving is not a right it is a privilege. I think those bastards ought to loose theirs nationwide once and for all. Jesus Loves you and so do i. God bless firneds ! Audra and Wrench,Half of what I say is affect. One of my best friends from college renovates cars and motorcycles for a living. In fact he lives in a store come downtown Dallas where he has built up quite the clientele and makes a comfortable living. He owns three Harleys and several vintage autos. I drop by about once a month have lunch with him and a few of his employees and listen to motorcycle and girl stories. I usually don't get it and just laugh. These are good people with a passion. These folks hate the newbies people who purchase Harleys because it's the cool thing. For my friend it IS a lifestyle. I don't understand it as cars and motorcycles are just not my thing. I drive a jeep that has scratches on the side from trips to Death Valley and Montana and my friend loves it because it's American made. It's an interesting cult made up of passionate folks. I don't understand it nor do I relate. As in all groups some are real and some are fake. My friend has wrecked his ride several times over a lifetime. There was a measure when he could only get around on a cane because he broke his back. He gets around fine these days though has pain on rainy afternoons. But he's happy and he looks at himself in the mirror and he likes what's there. It's a good life for him and his freedom is something I admire.......:)Keep up the good fight..... HARLEY DAVIDSON IS THE BIGGEST DISGRACE EVER TO AMERICA. NOT TO MENTION THE BIGGEST PIECE OF SHIT EVER MADE. I be IN A SMALL TOWN 1,000 PEOPLE HERE ONE DUMB ASS BUYS A HARLEY AND 15 OTHER STUMP FUCKS BUY THEM ALSO. AND THOSE OF YOU HARDLY RIDERS THAT SAY THE POS (PIECE OF SHIT) HARDLEY DAVIDSON DOESN'T LEAK OIL BULLSHIT THEY LEAK LIKE NO OTHER. undergo WITNESSED THIS WITH ALL THE DUMB ASSES IN MY TOWN THAT WENT OUT AND BOUGHT THE P. O. S.. IN MY OPINION THE ONLY GOOD HARLEY IS THE ONE THAT HAS BEEN CRASHED OR GETTING SMASHED BY THE CAR SMASHER. SO HOW MANY OF YOU WORTHLESS HARLEY RIDERS HAD TO GO OUT AND BUY THE HARLEY DAVIDSON SPECIAL (IT CONSIST OF $45,000 PICKUP AND THE $30,000 ENCLOSED TRAILER WITH ALL THE OPTIONS OF OIL RESISTANT FLOOR. BED. AND THE HARDLEY A MOTORCYCLIST THRONE. AND MANY MORE MINOR OPTIONS.) PRETTY SAD WHEN 9 OUT OF 10 HARDLEY RIDERS HAUL THEIR BIKES MORE MILES THAN THE P. O. S RIDE THEM. THEN AGAIN IF THEY ARE DUMB ENNOUGH TO BUY AN OVERPRICED OUT DATED P. O. S I DON'T THINK I WANT TO SEE THEM OUT THEIR ON THE SAME ROAD AS I AM RIDING ON CAUSE THEIR MENTALLY CHALLENGED ASSES PROBABLY WOULD come down INTO ME ON A CURVE. JUST REMEBER FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS go HARLEY'S When you get right down to it. Harley-Davidson is just a bike. It is the measure survivor in a long line of American ride manufacturers; save the current crop of custom bikes and those built by outfits like Bog Dog. It is still just a frame tires tranny seat lights and an engine. Do not drop at one time there were more than 150 American manufacturers of motorcycles. I happen to be writing a History of American Motorcycle Manufacturers and I have had a come about to look at more than my fair overlap of brands since 1974. I have looked at and rode Vincent's. Broughs. Mondials. BMWs. Cushmans. Moto G's. Hondas and a few current make non-HD American bikes. I can express you that every brand has problems. Yes the other builders can say "made in America." That really cannot be argued. That being said. HD is still in a class of its own and that heritage is not something any current maker can seriously challenge. You see the ads for Japanese bikes that are sold using the biker image. I will never buy a Japanese bike because of the way the Japanese treated HD. Their publicly stated belief was at one time the V-Twin was a less than ideal geometry to use because it was outdated yet the Japanese eventually started building V-Twins and eventually used an American image to sell the bikes. Also do not forget what HD did when it came to the wholesale dumping of Japanese ride in this country. They went to the US government and asked for help. Eventually. HD grew strong and voluntarily had the provisions removed. That actually helped the Japanese. What sets HD apart is its history and that perhaps makes it unfair to label a Harley "just a bike." HD has an amazing history that should be respected for its longevity and the advancements it has made to the world of motorcycles. You can hate the bikes but you should respect the company and what it has contributed to the world. You should also hate the bike for the right reasons; not to mention you should understand what it is you hate about the bike on a fundamental level. Do not hate HD because of their cost. If you owned a company you would maximize your profits. I have forgiven them for the V-Rod after all. Incidentally some people complain about the V-Rod and say it is not truly American. They forget the Aermacchi years. HD has manufactured some amazing bikes over the decades and they have a pedigree no modern maker ordain ever act away from them or likely equal. I do not think any alternative "HD" maker ordain be here in a hundred years; most certainly they ordain not do what HD has done in its long life. I think HD will be the eventual winner because they are a strong brand and let's face it many people will always prefer HD to all other brands regardless of where they are made or who makes them. I am not saying they will be around in 100 years. It is likely however. There will probably be a few other makers along align as come up. You should also consider the vast number of models HD has produced since 1903; not to have in mind some amazing power plants like the Panhead. Knucklehead the "K" engine the Flathead the powerplants used to drive torpedoes. Shovelheads and others. Most of these old bikes have good resale value that no Japanese bike has. Perhaps no other American manufacturer's bikes will sell for what you paid for them in thirty years. Also believe the other products HD Incorporated (not the Harley-Davidson Motor Company object you) has manufactured or still manufacturers to this day. For example high technology wiring harness devices panel delivery vehicles high tech controllers for torpedoes guidance system components and other interesting products. HD discussions often polarize people and I think it is useful to occasionally remind populate that HD is more than just a company. Harley is a very special company that is unique in all the world. Harley-Davidson is a very special American manufacturer with no compete. We want more American manufacturers with an extremely loyal customer base do we not? Will we be better off if everyone thought desire you and stopped buying American products?Just read the thoughts being expressed here; you really cannot discuss Harley without the inevitable "HD sucks" comments. Defenders will be and the gloves go on. Then again the lovers and fans can see nothing wrong and in some cases they are not accurate either. In many cases we read and hear the same old platitudes. Few detractors can offer up any legitimate reasons why "Harley Davidson Sucks." They charge about the cost or the "RUB" but never any serious reasons. HD ordain not escape its history and indeed they offered up a few lemons over the years as undergo all other manufacturers. Let us not forget the AMF years; that usually draws a crowd ready to contend and argue. According to some populate all AMF Harleys suck. Not necessarily true. Some great bikes came out of the factory in those days and are still running strong today. Much of the "AMF Harley Sucks" crowd has zero experience with bikes produced during those years so they should not communicate so loudly. I know many AMF riders and not one of their bikes suffers leaks. Not one of them. I hear how great Big Dog bikes are but I also experience several buyers who are pissed off because of problems with their BD bikes and they will never buy another. It would not be fair to hammer BD for an occasional lemon. Would it? From what I have observed. BD wants to gratify customers and they apparently are quick to fix the problems. A few bad BD bikes does not make BD a bad manufacturer. Every manufacturer falls short from measure to time and produces a less than wonderful ride. Including Harley. Why is it all we hear is how bad HD is?For the record. I do not like BD (and all of the others) bikes but I must commend them for building bikes and developing a growing public interest in motorcycles. My reasons for not liking them is I do not like anything that new. I prefer old bikes with Flathead engines and plenty of cast iron. I will never buy a new Harley either. The measure Harley I bought was a 1980 Sportster basket case. Unfortunately some "experts" say many things that are inaccurate. Their opinions are often formed by what they have read on the web or learned second had from other equally ignorant owners and riders. I experience people who hate Harley and they have never ever ridden a bike. One example the notion that the 1952 Model "K" was nothing more than a Sportster is an often quoted bit of incorrect information. Ask any K Model owner or read the specs and obtain manuals. Ask me for that matter. Or they want to go 170 MPH so they do not buy HD because HD sucks for not building a rocket on two wheels. Then we go for a ride at 130 or so and they change their mind. 170 would scare me. I comprehend it all the time. Harley should build rocket bikes and because they do not they suck. How bloody stupid and ignorant do you have to be to suggest that a bike that goes 170 is at all important and because a company does not build such a ride they are to be faulted?So what bikes undergo HD manufactured that are (my opinion) so wonderful? Well look at my current loves. A 1943 WLA military model. The ride is solid as hell starts with a few kicks can travel across the US of A with very little concern all day desire at 60 MPH. If it breaks roadside repairs are a snap. It is a true displace pleaser. If I need parts they are as change state as my fax machine or a telephone call. In fact. I can get parts for a WLA easier than for most current model bike made in lacquer. Heads cranks cylinders tranny parts gears wheels tin brake parts.. whatever I need is a telephone call away and in my shop in a few days. I can even get NOS blackouts for the lights. Oh and a machine gun mount. There are other models I have experience with: 1944 "U" Navy. 1969 Servi-Car. 1936 61EL. 1951 74FL Hydra-Glide and a few Knuckleheads. As with the WLA these bikes are easily repaired parts are readily available they will run forever if cared for and contrary to popular belief they do not break oil. They also have another benefit --I can probably trade any of them straight across for anything on the HD showroom floor. Chances are. I could trade them for a brand new BD. Want a crowd to leave the latest and greatest custom? Pull up on a restored Panhead or a 1951 Hydra-Glide. If not a vintage Harley lets consider another American mark the venerable Indian. I am not talking about the current crop of Indians but a 1947 Chief or perhaps a Scout or 4-cylinder. Not only do they draw a crowd; they hold their value perhaps far better than a modern HD or BD. The new Indians are nothing more than a version of a modern HD with skirted fenders and the name Indian on the store. At one time there was a rivalry between Harley and Indian. If we had the net back then you would comprehend the same arguments we have over HD Vs Japan. Indian owners often did not like the Harley. There are also arguments between real Indian owners and the new Indian owners. Just as angry. Parts are a telephone call away and if you want a new one you can order a kit of parts from Bob Stark at Starklite. Yes. Bob ordain sell you every part needed to build a have and 100 percent original Chief. Plastic fenders or metal. The engine has been road tested and they are perfect. I mention Indian because a common complaint is parts are not available the bikes are too slow far too outdated and no one can fix them so they drink. This is not true. Not by a desire shot. A friend of mine wanted a new Japanese whatever and so he bought one. He must wait for parts where I can get parts in a few days. As for your post:(You) "We in the D. C area just go treated to another tiresome rolling Geritol commercial. Thousands of RUBs [Rich Urban Bikers] came to the area on their Harley Davidson motorcycles polluting the area with the sounds of troubled G. I tracts."(Me) If it were not for the RUB you might not have a Harley. This can be debated. Also. I do not like the term RUB. Usually those that use that call want to be the rich in RUB. My old HD is not noisy by the way. FYI the sound you hear is music.(You) "Here's why I hate Harleys and the dweebs who ride them" (You) "For encouraging dentists to wear leather."(Me) HD has been selling leather since forever and it is a good idea to wear leathers. So your point would be what? Perhaps flip-flops and shorts?(You) "For giving away a case of DentuCreme with every new hog."(Me) So silly so very silly. No comment.(You) "For disenfranchising real tough guys. The true scum and lowlifes that made Harley fearsome either can't drop them or are ashamed to ride them. [Maybe they can become part of a protected class.]"(Me) "real tough guys?" What does that mean? The Brando days are over and the real biker tough guy is probably nicer than most of the dentists wearing all of that silly leather. I dog sit for a real biker and he is nice. The dog is less than nice but that is another story. Are you saying that "the true get rid of and lowlifes" are now frightened to ride a Harley? I do not know what you convey by your comment but if you see a group of Hells Angles along side the road gratify by all means voice that opinion. Get that plot ready. You also seem to be saying that there are no tough RUBs. Wanna Bet? I'll introduce you to some truly mean RUBs and you can inform out their shortcomings. Then you ordain be that case of Dentu-Cream you mentioned. You are hung up on one tiny portion of the "Biker World." You consider Harley with tough biker. There are tough bikers and there are tough "RUBs." I declare you leave them all alone and suffer in silence or learn to drink your food through a cover.(You) "For their thumping pipes which answer no function except to disrupt the peace."(Me) Depends on the engine and the pipes. Some bikes are loud yet they meet current noise limit laws. Ever comprehend a XR all out? (You) "For riding two abreast because they have no balls."(Me) You cannot possibly know how tough anyone is and if they have one or two balls. Some of us have had serious accidents and have only one. Hint: Never weld naked. 'nuff said. Relax and take a deep breath.(You) "For diluting an authentic piece of Americana."What has been diluted? HD has been in business for a very long time and they have always sold accessories and clothing; they still do and they sell it by the metric ton daily. We have seen new plants spring up an increase in units sold clothing and accessories sales through the roof new dealerships thousands of new customers. Please give me a break; the brand is stronger than ever. Diluted.. do we even understand the term?I would guess you are not one damn bit familiar with the hit cylinder Italian bikes HD imported or the wonderful Topper Scooter are you? Toppers ran out at 65 miles per hour by the way. Very cool but it is a silly little scooter. Like Vespa. What about the 1955 ST based on a German design the Sprints and the M-50s. Do not drop the 1967 CRTT it was faster than some Sportsters and it was as fast (115 MPH) as a 1980 XR750 which had a top speed of 115 miles per hour. Some of these bikes would be laughed at these days for being so very non big bad greasy RUB biker kind of bike. At least by ignorant people with no historical knowledge. I can well imagine how you would react to HD announcing they were importing a non-HD manufactured single cylinder bike from Italy. Would that further dilute this Americana you speak of?(You) "For the fat asses I see spilling over the ever wider seats."(Me) Fat Asses? What does that mean? Remember us skinny guys do not like full dressers because they scare us. Too heavy. Perhaps a tattoo will help me? Or are you against a little ink too.(You) "For the stupid looks on their faces when they drive down the street. Look at me. I'm cool!"(Me) Or. "look at me. I have arrived and I can finally afford a real bike." You know the exact same look you had when you bought your first Harley. Iffin you did that is.(You) "For their endless and now meaningless displays of flag waving patriotism. It is a soulless piece of the branding effort."(Me) I must take great offense at that comment. I have friends with guns currently stationed in the Middle East and we all love to wave flags. Do not go there sport; you ordain piss off quite a few populate that evaluate flag waving is important. So educate me please. What is wrong with flag waving and endless patriotism? I am buying a URAL sidecar rig so I guess you will evaluate me to be a communist because of where the bike is made. What nationality should a proud American on an American manufactured bike be waving? Canada or perhaps Indonesia?(You) "For how shiny and endlessly chromed out their their bikes are -- another sign they are just move of a laundry enumerate of toys -- and not an intrinsic move of their lifestyle."(Me) Come on a little shiny bit here and there is nice. I really can't speak about chrome however. For me it is Cad plating japan adorn for the forks and OD color create. Or Navy blue but black is nice too. What the hell does "lifestyle" convey anyway? Not everyone wants to be a part of this mythical bad ass biker world you think all HD owners are desperate to live in.(You) "For the wimps from Ohio and North Carolina who drive them here on trailers -- pulled behind minivans!"(Me) Or from Utah hauling a trailered Brough-Superior to the Las Vegas auction. And to trailer back the Harley-Davidson "U" I have my eye on and I am very lucky. And. I like minivans. I prefer my 1947 Ford however.(You) "Harley has become a communicate."Well something has but probably not Harley. Your rant did not touch on anything substantially or fundamentally wrong with the bike and its shortfalls. Just a tirade about the idiots and fools that are somehow destroying your skewed mythological believe of the biker world. If you are going to hate HD post a few allow reasons. God what a long post. I'll change state up and offer an apology to everyone here. Bob (Someone said) "When you can convince me that the "Harley" you bought for 40 grand can surpass the technology of a bike that cost less than 1/2 that is faster and more reliable will not rattle my teeth out and won't leak oil all over my store. I will pay that. Until then cognise that just because it is made here in America doesn't convey it is worth 40 grand. Keep your pussy comments to yourself as I ride and import and can comfort kick a HARDLY riders ass any day of the week on or OFF the bike!!"Some American bikes are worth forty grand. However one must evaluate the bike and how important a certain level of technology might be to you. For example how fast do you really need to go? Is a bike that runs out at 90 MPH any better than one that runs out at 160? As for reliability most bikes ordain be reliable if cared for. Most of the bikes I see with issues undergo not been cared for. For example irregular oil changes or incompetent wrenches. Consider that a 1940 Indian Four is worth that much (actually closer to fifty grand) as are a few others. Most people will not pay that much on a bike regardless of who makes it and most people will not spend that in a ride made when their papa was a kid. I would pay forty grand for any of these bikes: the Indian Four some Broughs or a Black follow. Not one of these bikes are high tech excepts for the Vincent perhaps. Consider this: not every Harley runs rough. Certainly not every Harley leaks oil and certainly you cannot kick every Harley.. excuse me. Hardley rider's ass. That is just e-bluster and e-boasts. I'll give you this: you probably can kick my ass. A full dressed Harley with a sidecar probably hits close to the forty grand mark and I can pledge it is a smooth runner and does not leak oil. If it is taken care of that is. Robert - Salt Lake City. Utah (Someone said) "Hondas are made and assembled in the USA but cant advertise that because HD bitched about it. Ever notice that HD carbs are now made in Japan and that most of the clothes and accommodate thay sell is made every place but the USA. WTF is up whith that?"Let us explore your obviously qualified statements shall we?First of all. Harley does not bring down the Made in USA policies. The Federal Trade Commission does. I do not know what HD bitched about or the outcome so please give a reliable source for your assertion. I be to know where you got your information. convey: the rule you are looking for is the FTC's "Made in USA" policy so start there. Harley might undergo complained but they would not complain if their complaints were not valid. And what if they did complain? If some foreign concern is playing unfair. HD has every right to act action and they damn well should complain. And you somehow see this as bad? Ever had a job outsourced? Do you be American concerns to succeed?Frankly. I do not like mostly foreign made goods being sold as being somehow American. Do you? Honestly?If it is/was a valid claim obviously they had the FTC policy to back up their claims. So prove your case and tell me why this is a bad idea. As for foreign parts so what? Lots of HD parts are foreign and undergo been for years. Do some basic research. So what! Clothing is another matter. I have a few leather jackets that are made in the United States. My bearings are U. S. Made as are my gaskets and my oil. Tanks and fittings some electrical parts.. lots of USA parts. I can also tell you that HD wants American suppliers. I experience because I undergo done business with them before. What would you do if you were making products? Would you buy American for $100.00 or foreign for $35.00? Would you buy a superior Japanese product for half of what an inferior American made part would cost you?HD is a business. They have employees and stockholders. All need to be paid or make money. HD also needs parts to sell so again what would you do? Stop making products because no American manufacturer can provide parts in quantity?I will tell you one thing HD did do. President Reagan once imposed a 45 percent tariff over a five-year period on Japanese heavy motorcycles to help Harley Davidson. Not every Japanese bike mind you. Four years later. Harley Davidson asked that the tariff be removed because Harley no longer needed the provisions. What does that tell you about Harley? Perhaps they are not as evil as you seem to think they are?Bob - Salt Lake City. Utah (Someone said in all capital misspelled verbiage) "HARLEY DAVIDSON IS THE BIGGEST DISGRACE EVER TO AMERICA. NOT TO MENTION THE BIGGEST PIECE OF SHIT EVER MADE. I LIVE IN A SMALL TOWN 1,000 PEOPLE HERE ONE DUMB ASS BUYS A HARLEY AND 15 OTHER STUMP FUCKS BUY THEM ALSO. AND THOSE OF YOU HARDLY RIDERS THAT SAY THE POS (PIECE OF SHIT) HARDLEY DAVIDSON DOESN'T LEAK OIL BULLSHIT THEY break LIKE NO OTHER. HAVE WITNESSED THIS WITH ALL THE DUMB ASSES IN MY TOWN THAT WENT OUT AND BOUGHT THE P. O. S.. IN MY OPINION THE ONLY GOOD HARLEY IS THE ONE THAT HAS BEEN CRASHED OR GETTING SMASHED BY THE CAR SMASHER. SO HOW MANY OF YOU WORTHLESS HARLEY RIDERS HAD TO GO OUT AND BUY THE HARLEY DAVIDSON SPECIAL (IT CONSIST OF $45,000 PICKUP AND THE $30,000 ENCLOSED TRAILER WITH ALL THE OPTIONS OF OIL RESISTANT FLOOR. BED. AND THE HARDLEY A MOTORCYCLIST THRONE. AND MANY MORE MINOR OPTIONS.) PRETTY SAD WHEN 9 OUT OF 10 HARDLEY RIDERS HAUL THEIR BIKES MORE MILES THAN THE P. O. S RIDE THEM. THEN AGAIN IF THEY ARE DUMB ENNOUGH TO BUY AN OVERPRICED OUT DATED P. O. S I DON'T THINK I be TO SEE THEM OUT THEIR ON THE SAME ROAD AS I AM RIDING ON CAUSE THEIR MENTALLY CHALLENGED ASSES PROBABLY WOULD CRASH INTO ME ON A CURVE. JUST REMEBER FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS RIDE HARLEY'SLets take a quiet moment to critically review and think about the value of the above post. I would like to know why Harley.. excuse me. Hardleys are so bad. Perhaps you are buying the wrong mark of ride? You know like Wistinghouse TVs. A Rolefux Watch. Stump copulate Brand Reusable Condoms or Gubwiser Beer. Your problems might simply be a matter of buying the wrong mark by mistake. You need to be on the lookout for Harley-Davidson and avoid the apparent Hardley-Davidson knockoffs sold on the side of the road in yer neck of the woods. Look for big shiny stores bright shiny orange and black signs joyous and happy shiny people.. er stump fucks and spittle and drool from all the kinfolk looking through the winders at the big shiny bikes in the general store.. er dealership. Your comments seem to be quite useless because you did not say much. Just lots of yelling cussing and all in caps. People yell and scream but they cannot tell me what makes a typical Harley so god awful evil. Perhaps it is a money problem more than a problem of crappy American made bikes. It usually is after all. That is why the Ferrarri sucks and until I can drop one they always will suck. Yes. Harleys are too expensive. On the surface. Factor in the longevity of the bike and a Harley can be cheap in the long run. So what is your real issue? Does the excessive chrome blind you while haulin 'emit from county to county as one of them arouse Hogs (that is a big city evince for Harley) flies by? Perhaps you are pissed at the RCBs. Rich Country Bumpkins bother me too. Perhaps some things will always be too expensive like shoes for all the youngins' and false teeth for ma and pa. Please do not yell at those of us that can act the greyhound to the big city and buy nice shiny new shoes. Metaphorically speaking. Oil leaks yes. They are a problem. However. I undergo seen very few leaky bikes in my years of eating bugs and dodging coppers; or in your neck of the deep woods the Revenuers. I undergo actually construe a inform that seems to tell most leaks occur in bikes sold to amaze fucks living in small towns of perhaps 1,000 people and they take their bikes to the John Deere dealer for repairs. Your statistics "9 out of 10 haul their bikes more than they ride them" is not quite accurate and seem rather odd. Can you have in mind some stats and facts? I like facts. Wow. 90 percent of all Harleys are bad? The only populate I know that haul bikes are restorers and collectors. Occasionally a few riders that do not be to ride all the way to an event. I have no problem hauling a ride to an event in a trailer. So what is the problem?Bob - Salt Lake City. Utah Like many posting here my main complaint is the go. Somehow it seems to be a problem with a huge percentage of Harley Davidsons more so than any other alter I've seen. As beat as I understand it the noise has somehow become part of the image. Admittedly I don't care much for any of the visualise the tough guy look the über patriotism the hairy unkempt appearance etc. But most of that is your own business. If you like spending much of your free time talking about your cycle that's your business. If you be to not shave or shower for long periods. If you can keep your meth usage to yourself... fine by me just keep me out of it. But how is it that so many Harley owners feel that it is acceptable to blast the rest of us with their exhaust? I've heard the excuse that somehow loud pipes are supposed to save lives. But for one go pollution is a proven contributor to problems like hypertension diabetes low test scores for children etc. And I just don't buy the "loud pipes save lives" argument. The fag is projected behind the vehicle the spot where any other driver has the beat view of you. I've ridden a ride through a dense urban environment and can tell you the beat safety mesure is bright clothing and good lighting. I did wish I had a horn on occasion but thankfully did not alter to noise or air pollution for my years of commuting by bicycle. Also in terms of safety. Harley's don't have anti lock brakes and are prone to overheating in hot climates (or so I've read.)And oddly enough sometimes motorcycle riders were the worst in terms of trampling on my rights (desire ridding in the bicycle lanes in heavy traffic and running red lights.) Where I live they be to congregate in poor areas where people are least able to get go laws enforced. (mostly in Oakland. Richmond and Vallejo.) Frankly. I don't care if you are gay straight a meth accustom or a booze connoisseur. You can be fat and hairy and desecrating the flag by draping it down your frizzy unwashed hair. That's your business. But when your "look mom" exhaust wakes up my kid in the middle of the night that is my business and it's society's business. We need to work on having real penalties and enforcement for people who disrespect noise laws. I'm not create from raw material to declare vandalizing loud bikes (have you seen the Harley Davidson Noise Pollution stickers throughout SF?) But if there is no enforcement. I can't blame people who do take the law into their own hands. Im am amazed at the anti-HD posts here but as this is an anti-HD site. (see the owner of this blog). I souldn't be. I own three bikes a HD a win and a Honda. The all have different rides and for whatever mood Im in I will ride that bike period. Im not trying to impress anyone and I don't give a fuck what anyone thinks espcially on this blog. However I will give my fair unbiased opinion on what this blog is about. IMO. Dumbass riders trying to be or not trying to be. I think most all riders are alter to each other save the posters on this blog. I give a gesticulate to most all riders and get the same in go. I undergo found that most HD riders will wave when Im on my non HD. I know there are some that have safety concerns or didn't see me or who are assholes however they are in the minority. IMO. I find it humorus that a lot of the metric riders on this bolg charge that HD riders bikes are loud. I've heard plenty of metrics with headers on and they are very loud even louder than HD's as they alter more of a high pitch sound. I see very often metric riders usually in groups riding very abstain between lights jumping in and around cars riding on the shoulder and doing wheelies. Its very dangerous to them but if they don't care then I don't compassionate but also to innocent drivers in cars or even pedestrians. I rarely ever see HD riders doing dangerous and stupid things like that. Thats why I find it so amazing that you guys complain about noise or a HD visualise. (which most of which is in your own head because of your own insecurities) while your little metric assort behaves so dangerously which is far worse than noise. You losers that complain and assort all HD riders into one group need to get a life. I know most of you are just posers anyway and don't even own a bike if you did you would't worry about HD riders you'd realize that we are all in a loosely nit brother hood of riders. I know in years past you'd never see metrics and HD riders going up the road together. I do see it now days. I know you guys hate that lol. Carburator anyone? It's taken until the 90's for HD to inform fuel injection--and they made it sound desire it's on the cusp of new technology. One sees people working on HD's more than mid-80's Fords!Since 1983. "American" vehicles suck in general. They're made cheaply the engines are disposable they have low performance unless you want to fry out the engines by the time the warranty wears off and almost none of the parts are actually made in the United States but we're supposed to "buy American" so we can support some billionaires sitting in expensive office chairs doing business remotely on their yachts while paying just pennies to people in China who do all the work. When it comes to the noise of HD's. I would have to agree that they only make a lot of go when the owners purposely make them loud. Older harleys may be an exception but even the older harleys can be made quieter if the owners spend the money to make them quieter. In certain places and at certain times. I don't object the loud pipes thing but it'd be nice if the loud pipes was an option that could be turned on and off so the bikers who want to rev up their bikes at 6am or at 1am and ride down the street and back and then put the bikes back away could make them quieter at those times. Many harley riders think they're proving how badass they are when they rev up their purposely-extra-loud bikes at inappropriate areas at inappropriate times but they're really just proving how much they are assholes. I'd say that 5% of bikers with loud pipes like to do that choose of thing and they ruin it for the ones that are considerate. I desire the whole look of harleys. I like the big bearded unkempt biker look the rebellious be. I like the cultural aspects of HD but the bikes themselves are pieces of crap just desire all new "American" vehicles. Unfortunately the Harley biker look has been changing from the whole rebellious look to a rich look--I've been seeing more business-suit-types riding harleys over the past 5-8 years than I have the bikers that don't be to follow societal norms. It's kind-of what has happened to rock--rock no longer has anything to do with rebellion it now just represents commercialism. I don't put the culture of HD in the same boat as rap music or abstain food--but I would put them in the same category of "American" gas guzzling SUV's that wouldn't guzzle gas if the oil companies weren't so busy buying the patents for fuel-efficient engines and paying off the automakers. It's sad that vehicles made in 1975 get about the same gas mileage as vehicles made currently that are the same weight--oh but they're not as bad for the environment now--yeah that's it.... First off. I currently do not own a bike other than a enduro bike however I've owned a few Triumph's. On this consider I bend towards agreeing with the Harley riders. Lets ake out the fact that the only beef most of the crotch rockets riders have is that they seem to feel insecure. The only thing they can say is how much HD's cost or how loud they are or in your opinion the reliability of the HD's or the whole imgage thing. Why would you guys care? Its not your business. The only reasonable point you have is the noise however that is moot as I've heard PLENTY of crotch rockets with headers and they are even more loud and they are more annoying. IMO. It seems desire the crotch rockets guys tend to be younger and more immature for the most part. Since they are younger they be to make less money at this time. Most feel the the HD riders are part of a special thing and they feel like HD is "American" and what they ride isn't. I think this leads to the insecurity issues. This leads me to what is the bigger.. much bigger issue safety. The crotch rocket guys are MUCH. MUCH more dangerous than any HD rider I've seen. For example yesterday coming home in my truck out of no where on a two lane divided rural road these three crotch rockets were on my ass. No problem let them ride my bumper. I wont lose that battle,LOL. Its a rural road lots of curves no passing zones houses and side streets. Anyway on a no passing section this one asshole decides to pass about 4 cars. (we are all driving about 50mph). He gets around all of us and barely is able to get approve in his lane before a transport heading in the opposite direction has to pull off to the shoulder!!Then the other asshole crotchrocket decides to pass us all on the bring up!! There are turnoffs etc on this road. So this asshole goes blaring by us all and is able to get in front. So the last asshole is actually able to pass in a passing zone but can only pass one car before another one is heading towards him. So he cuts back over and he passes the rest of the cars on the shoulder!!Talk about immature irresponsible inform headed dorks. You can communicate about HD riders spending too much money. (again the jealousy issue) them buying into the image thing or whatever. I can honestly say I very very rarely see a HD guy doing anything close to what I saw the other day. Infact I don't evaluate I've ever saw them do anything as stupid as that. The bad thing is I see crotch rocket guys doing crap like that way too much. I know a majority of the rocket guys are not like that but there are way too many that are. In fact most non riders I know compalian about guys who ride those "racing type bikes" as they say. I never hear anyone complain about HD riders except for the nosie which means they can comprehend them. You guys need to watch out about casting stones in a glass house. I needed to say that my complaints about the loud pipes is a small one--in fact even though I think those people who do the miniature 5-6am loud-pipes parade in the middle of a residential area are inconsiderate. I believe those people experience how to have a good measure without actually hurting anyone else. I have had a consider for the biker community for a desire time. Unfortunately the respect is not quite as high as it used to be. Especially since the early 90's it seems that a certain income level is expected to be a biker now--and a certain level is even expected at biker events. The cost of motorcycles in general has effected this dramatically. Harleys aren't the only bikes that are overly-expensive now. Yeah people are jealous of having the money it takes to buy a Harley. They're jealous of the money and the prestige of being "in that club" not just the Harley itself. Before one had to be of a certain mindset to either be a biker or someone who hangs well with bikers now one just has to make a lot of money and undergo the ability to tactfully brag while attempting to look comfortable wearing jeans and a t-shirt instead of a suit or casual slacks and polo shirt for casual fridays. Just think about how many "dive" biker bars have closed over the past 15 years as compared to previous and the message is clear: to be a modern biker you be to alter a lot of money and you don't do that by being a dissent. Craziness and weirdness don't make a very good business model. Am I poor? Yep and hopefully that will change. I ride a HD. I've ridden a HD for 30 years. All I've ever riden are Sportsters. I've bought 4 brand new. The latest is a 2004 custom. Now where do I fit. The "real" HD riders consider it to be half a bike. Oh it's the fastest half because there is a rare Dyna. Softail. Electra/RK that can act up with me. Can it pop the front wheel at 30 MPH and show off no can it corner like a crotch rocket no but is it fun yes. I act them have for the most part and no loud pipes. I ride because it's my life call not because it's "cool". There are motorcyclist and there are RUBS and immature riders that embarrass us all. I would hope that just because I ride a HD doesn't alter me a HD HOG junkie. I go a HD because I like the sound the power and most of all thrum of true original. I wave at all other bikers regardless of what they ride. We are part of a fraternity of people who enjoy the ride not the destination. Other than my own mistakes my HD scoots have never left me stranded ever. The 68. 78 models did leak oil but my 86 and now the 2004 sporty don't. For all you HD riders out there with the loud pipes at age 50 like myself you'll be wearing hearing aides. You don't need them for safety that's a myth. The sound is behind you not in front your just pissing others off. I hate waking up at midnight to the sound of a HD. My opinion only. Ride Safe OK,. First (jack me hoff) yes there are a lot of irresponsible sportbike riders out there. They are jerks but the +40 crowd has the fastest growing death rate among motorcyclists. The +40ers think they undergo all this money and then go buy the biggest Hardley they can and then die create they won't wear a helmet or learn how to ride a real bike first. They are just as dangerous as the stupid stunter Sportbikers. Both are dangerous to other vehicles on the road. There is nothing worse than an idiot on his motorcycle that does not experience how to go it. Second there really isn't this insecurity among us Sportbikers. We really don't care we experience Hardley's drink and wouldn't pay the money if we did or didn't have it. We get pissed because Hardley riders go out of their way to bruise our bikes and talk about their "real" bikes. This happened to me the other day (agian)and I just let him evaluate he won (I am so over it). I don't care too much because all it does is show their ignorance. All the Hardley marketing is based on image and thats a clump of crap. Why can't they merchandise based on performance or quality. It is because hardley's can't perform up to any other bikes in there class. How is it that Cycle Rider magazine had to put a 1200cc sportster up against a 900cc Triumph. Well the Hardley would have lost miserably and Harley Davidson (the company) wouldn't allow that. So the Mag had to cheat for Hardley so it could win. How manipulative is that????????? Its all a marketing scam. Hey buy this bike its the best bike out there. .................. until you take it out on the road and actually ride it hahahahaha total BS. Finally there are many overpriced bikes out there. be at Ducati and Aprilia. They are both 2-3 times the cost of a typical sportbike and yet are outperformed in most cases buy these cheaper bikes. Again it is image and I don't fall for that BS. I don't like those bikes because they really don't justify the extra money based on thier performance either. How about populate just cognise what they bought and paid for and not knock anyone elses choice while at the same time admitting that just create they bought this certain bike it doesn't make them or their bike superior to any others. Just STFU about who has a "real" ride and get it at that. I sight it funny that the Hardley guys are so disturb when everyone doesn't agree that Hardley's command. Just realize that we all haven't fallen for that marketing crap the same way you all did. First off Mr. KissNASSHOLEs you are obviously a person who lacks intelligence. The word you seek is. "you're" not. "your". If you had made it past the 6th grade you would've learned that. You typed. "Your funny....". The use of the word "your" is incorrect in this instance here's an example of how to use the evince correctly. "KissNASSHOLEs your mother gives good head". Now for the evince. "you're". "KissNASSHOLEs you're a moron who has the hit of a Jethro". See the difference you nitwit? I would think the increase of deaths among older bikers is this there are more bikers in this age group. A few years ago you rarely saw a biker over 40. Now its common and I personally evaluate its cool. If the death rates for the younger riders is pretty much the same for the past several years I would guess its not because its low its because there has and always will be young riders. Riding bikes isn't for the faint hearted. You don't have to be a warrior but you do have to know you're taking more of a chance of getting hurt on a bike than a car. When we are young we think nothing can happen to us. Thats why wars are fought usually with young men. As we get older we be to decrease drink a bit and think before we react. USUALLY. In recent years more riders have been in the over 40 group. I'd say the increase has been due to both newer riders and also riders simply riding longer and getting older. Its not because they are riding dangeroulsy or what not its just there are more of them lots more. BTW. Im not in the 40 group yet.. lol. Give me about 7 more years and I too will be there. So this is to those of us in the UNDER 40 hold we all need to respect each other no matter what type of bike we ride. I think a vast majority of us do respect each other its just a few morons on this blog including the owner of this site that feel inferior to HD's for some reason. Don't evaluate most HD riders are "dissen" you or whatever. Its mostly in your heads. I happen to own a FatBoy a FX a Kawasaki and a BMW so I see it from all angles. In my honsest opinion the BMW and HD riders tend to go the most sane. I get waves on all bikes from every group. The metrics be to push the envelope and ride on the more dangerous and unsafe side at least more than the BMW and HD guys. Your an idiot. If the best you can do is pick on the use of the word "your" then my point is proven. You can't argue anything pertinent and therefore have to sweat the petty things. Anyway the over 40 crowd which you aren't but seem to be acting like have a higher death rate because they get on thebiggest cruiser they can find create "its cool" or "badass". They get these bikes because they are told to get them so that they will fit in with the other lemmings they don't have minds of there own. Then they pull up next to you or me and act like they are the shit. Depending on the level of Asshole in them they are either polite or start with the trash communicate. Most start with the trash talk. I don't like them endangering me because they can't handle the bike. I am a responsible rider and could give two shits what anyone rides. However when the insulting begins and there is no basis or truth behind it I get pissed off. You know that your Harley's are crap compared to your other bikes when you communicate technology or performance or just about anything. You are probably one of the few that can understand both sides of the story yet you comfort have been brainwashed a little or you would never undergo bought the Harley. Common people. I have been riding for 31 years starting with motorcross. Indecently early dirt bike riders make the best street riders and most understand about being truthful when it comes to fun and function and that Harley Davison resides in the cult fiction dilution of first press motorcycle fantasy and has absolutely nothing to do with form function engineering performance or quality. To the old who cut their Harleys I have deep respect because they understand their reasoning for expressive art. But for the dingdong head wan Abe's out their that lie up without a clue about motorcycle dynamics truly waste road lay and place themselves and others in danger. Unfortunately like sheep that run off a cliff in herds few Harley riders learn and always mention "my Harley cost a lot to maintain and is uncomfortable to go but I get a lot of looks from the street corner crowds (ME!)". I actually had a Fat Boy displace up next to me on my Bandit 1200s and go that sorry excuse of a power plant for a race a mere twist and the guy was in my rear believe reflect wondering why his so called "125 HP" machine couldn't change surface mouth to keep up which is just the norm of the Harley performance iceberg. Sweet Dreams dreamers. Gunner G. USCG Ret So many things to say. I'll try to keep it bunco. At the moment I ride an '82 Suzuki GS 750. It runs great no problems. But to be honest. I'm saving up to buy a new ride and it won't be a Harley. The reliability and quality of ride isn't there for me. I'm looking at a Triumph or more likely a Victory. BMWs are nice too. I ride a JAP bike but quite honestly when I look at the new ones they all just seem soulless and without character sort of desire the tuner cars out on the road nowadays. BTW my understanding is that Victory now has more Made in the USA parts than Harley. If that's true then it's Harley's choice to buy foreign parts not because they can't find good quality parts here in the US as one post commented. Also why can't Harley (who has been at this bet for over a century) be Victory for quality? That Freedom Engine is incredible. As for the riders? Yeah. I run into some who have nothing but disdain for anyone who rides a non-Harley. I see less and less of them though. The ones who buy the aftermarket pipes so they can be heard from a mile away? Grown kids who still need to show off. I evaluate they should be ticketed teh same as the cars with excessively loud pipes or blaring stereos. Later OH YES. WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO HARLEY PEOPLE?It used to be that the biker bar had the cheapest beer and loosest women. NOW the biker bars are the in place to hang out if your are dressrd like a biker drop if you undergo ever been on a bike who cares if the beer is $4 a bottle the chicks wouldnt show titty because it would eat up their hair and maybee pull their TEMPARAY tattoos off besides someone from the office might see. The 21st century biker move be seen in a sleezy bar with a girl of questionable rep.(or someone elses wife) drinking a domestic beer,or riding a bike in adverse weather. And for Gods sake dont say nigger! IF HE DONE THESE THINGS HES NOT A BIKER AT ALL. When the hell did bikers become politically change by reversal? When did we become respectable? When did we move into the upper income brackets? And above all WHY DID THEY LEAVE ME BEHIND? Ive had these new bikers lay next to me on their evos look at my ride point at the kick starter and ask what it is! Look at te frame and ask how i can possibly ride a bike without shocks! with out a stereo! without blinker lites! And above all without a helmet. FUCK THIS EDUCATION SHIT/as far as I am concerned ABATE comfort stands for American Bikers Against Tolatarian Enactments! Ive seen bike shows that have an browse class for 1991 (yes 1991) or older. WEll HD conciders this OBSOLETE. Go to the Harley shop and try to get a set of points. 70wt oil or a 6V bulb. I get points and oil from a aftermarket shop and my 6V bulbs from BMW shop HD wont even order them let lone stock em!HARLEY HAS SOLD US OUT FOR PROFIT Much like many of the 60s bands. People who undergo a HD for a status symbol spend more money than those who actually ride them. IE $200 plus mirrors. $45 tshirts. When was the last time you were in a Harley shop that seemed like a motorcycle shop and not a botique in the mall. See no EVO Hear no EVO Speak no EVO and above all go NO EVO "Harley Davidson's are lame. They are overrated bikes. The Japanese and European bikes have superior technology. Anyone who buys a HD is merely buying a name."What if you do not NEED the technology for your purpose? If you are buying a race bike then you can afford to throw it away when it is obsolete but not all of us race. HDs are what to own if you want to keep the same machine for decades (I have) and have inexpensive (relatively) and comprehensive (HD is unequalled here) aftermarket parts support. You can build a end HD clone without buying a single factory nut bolt or washer. They are torquey docile narrow (you don't lose much that matters when they crash) easy to work on and most importantly easy to completely overhaul. Their "form factor" (to borrow a computer term) is comfortable and they are effortlessly tailored to any size rider. Japanese and European bikes of 1988 had superior tech to my 1988 FXR but that FXR has over 90,000 miles of abuse and was easily to overhaul. The furnish end is good for another 90K. Most of those "superior" machines are gone from the roads because they are so expensive to repair that it isn't worth fixing them. Their engine design is such that the labor alone is often prohibitive. When they change models the old Japanese and Euro bikes lose the inherent support of a large pool of common machines. That pool is what makes aftermarket companies tool up to produce parts in volume!"Gee mister that's boring!"Yeah but it's real too. The automobile comparison is to the small block Chevy. It isn't the highest tech engine on the planet but it wins on street and track because it stayed standard for decades. I wrench on all brands but I keep my HD (and my BWM R90/6) because they stand the evaluate of time and I don't get paid to fix my own scooters! :)As far as rhetoric. I don't define myself by my choice of bike anymore than my choice of computer video card. They are mass-produced products make by corporations who only care about parting me from my money. IF it serves me. I'll buy their cram. If not copulate 'em. From another post:"what happend wiht indians? all i read was about harley!!! where are the classic chief?"Indian committed suicide by not producing an overhead valve engine and by retaining a sliding-gear transmission. The sloppy nostalgia over those pretty fenders nowadays obscures the fact that Indian like the Brits bitterly refused to improved their product and got killed in the marketplace. They were pretty but they weren't very good bikes. Harley came very close to doing the same thing but thanks to adopting Japanese quality practices (and buying modern Japanese machining centers so much for Cincinnati Milacron...) they rescued the company. On marketing:"Bikers" were way too poor to support the company. HD had always made big bucks from very straight citizens hence models like the FLH Shrine dressers and the police bikes. Poor folks did some great work customising and thus promoting HDs but they weren't where the money was. Folks who spend money and can afford to be tell customers are what the Motor Company requires to be solvent so their strategy of co-opting aftermarket innovations (disc brakes the Softail frame the Softail NAME sing drives solid-disc aluminum wheels fuel injection. 21" front wheels on glide frontends) and pasteurising "biker" experience for mas consumption was cause to be perceived. They targeted the "Corvette" market which isn't affected much by the economy and won."Ive seen bike shows that have an antique class for 1991 (yes 1991) or older. WEll HD conciders this OBSOLETE. Go to the Harley shop and try to get a set of points. 70wt oil or a 6V bulb. I get points and oil from a aftermarket shop and my 6V bulbs from BMW shop HD wont even order them let lone stock em!"By automotive standards those items ARE obsolete. Sorry but few new-car dealers displace parts for old cars either. This is precisely why we undergo an aftermarket. Aftermarket support is more flexible than any dealer. Why would you even think of going to a dealer for old bike parts unless you knew they had a stash in the back? You wouldn't do it with a car. That's what NAPA and commercial parts manufacturers are for. If you are going to eat with old vehicles of any type being a self-sufficient mechanic is move of the game as is sourcing your own parts. There is so much online give I haven't visited a dealer in years nor do I care to. So much garbage from so many. Thanks goodness there was also some great comments such as from the one poster way back when in this thread that said he was not a biker but rather he was a motorcylist. With that I more than agree. Love the harley but hate the image that so many riders try to protray. Why is it that so many think they have to have everyone belive they are bad asses for. Damn most the time they r normal people but once they head out the door to ride that harley they suddenly have to don on there chains studded collars and other egest. I am just glad that in my area there are many harley owners that ride and look normal because they enjoy riding hey and guess what they dont wear the 'hey be at me' bad ass crap. They look normal. Unfortunatly still yet they do not outnumber the attention getters. I myself have owned several diiferent bikes and undergo enjoyed them all. Now how about those younger guys out there doing there stoppies and hinder riding. Do u really think you are cool doing that. Well I'll tell you what. I wish I had that kind of skill and was young enough to do it. The only exception I take to that form of riding is when it is done on the streets another ploy for attention and extremly dangerous for those around you. Remember the cage next to you that takes his/hers eyes off the road to see what the hell u r doing may have a kid in that car. I would not be to be responsible for having that kid cause to be perceived. Would you. Its not what u ride but how you present yourself when doing so. I just dont understand why so many are putting down different types of bikes. If I want to build a bike with a honda close in a harley engine and a kali front end thats my choice and u dont have the right to put it down. Enjoy what you have and what you desire and try to be a real man/woman and not a want to be bad ass. bequeath there are some "real" bad asses out there that you dont want riding up to you on a back street. They cannot stand the imatators either. By the way I now go a 1800 goldwing so have fun putting that drink now that should give you something else to bitch about. It is amusing to construe some of these post and just sad to read others so much hate in the world. My 2000 FLHT doesn't shine much theses days but she just landed me home on another 5000 mile journey. My hog doesn't leak oil(36000 miles) fag is relativley quiet and it is as comfortable as any bike made. I choose not to ride with others. I travel alone and undergo always liked it this way. If I want company. I can come almost any other rider on the road and swap stories should I choose. I like turning alter when I want to turn alter or go left when I want to go left. Riding is an act of pure selfishness to me. The weeks I pay on the road are the only time someone is not trying to express me to do something go somewhere. I am 46 and for the record my first bike was a 650 special. The wiring harness burnt the back up week I had it. I owned a Honda rear go around fractured and had I not caught it who knows. Harleys are slow and kind of expensive (I bought mine the old fashion way. I saved my money.) but I can work on mine. The stealership gets very little of my cash and doing the regular service on my bike brings me great pleasure. The kid next hold on bought a 1850 honda in March. Been back to the dealer on four occassions to try and stop a nasty oil leak still leaks wiring and charging problems are plaquing this kid he is sick. They are all mechanical and they all break. Also I like the idea that when I am done beating my glide to death someone will give me ten thousand bucks for her not a bad go for much fun had! Be good to each other life is to short to be pissed off all the time. God arouse Get off your high horse and accept the fact that just because its a high priced. Genuine American Made Harley Davidson doesn't mean its the greatest thing on the approach of the hide. Harley is smoke and chrome. It's nothing more than an image that people spend too much money on. There are better engineered exceed built machines for less. If their bikes were half the price the bid of the Harley would be nothing. It's BLING. I'm better than you because I ride a Harley!Look at the Honda Rune a bike Harley could never produce even in their wettest dreams. If you rode a Rune they would still complain that its not an Harley. I can afford a Harley but I simply refuse to pay an exuberant price for an inferior product. Many people refuse to do this so don't use the "Can't afford a real bike" comment. "Get a real bike." Please define "real" as any ride is defined as having two wheels and an engine. The cutting edge V-Rod? Japan has been making that bike for 20 years. If Harley is so absolute in greatness why didn't they use their superior American ingenuity and design their own engine? Why didn't they go across the street to Ford. GM or Dodge for assistance? What does that say about Harley's faith in American engineering? How American is going to Europe for engine design? The V-Rod is based on the VR1000 race bike that was a general failure. It took them 10 years to incorporate that loosing race technology. The 20 year old Harley isn't much different from today's. The merchandise bike from 20 years ago is drastically different. Why? Racing improves the cause. The lessons learned from the racing world are inducted into the bikes on the street and not just the race bikes. Hold their value my ass! Add your required chrome bling big jugs cams six-speed trans accommodate forward controls ape hangers annoyingly loud drag pipes(that do nothing for safety because of the Doppler effect) and super fat rear tire spending over $8000 to make your bike where it should be from the factory at no extra charge! Selling years later at MSRP is still a loss. Why are there hundreds of aftermarket parts for Harleys like cams heads big bores and transmissions? Because you be to buy all that stuff to carry it up to go and into the 1990's. Harley doesn't race other than drag and dirt track that isn't exactly cutting edge. Nostalgia is an excuse for incompetence in innovation. If Harley was the beat they would be the leaders in motorcycling world and they are not. C'mon guys.. forbid picking on the Harley guys. According to Fortune magazine's inform the average Harley rider is 46 years old and increasing. I bet a lot of our moms and dads collected old preserve players. 8 bring in tapes etc because the look reminds them of good old days of their youth and lets them try to experience that. Sure functionally it's utterly inferior to modern equipment but it's a middle-age thing. Harley plays on that image that to these people. It looks and performs desire the cram they saw and admired when they were young. Let them like what they want. We're young good looking and have the exciting image they're really trying to recapture. You think a middle aged man constantly tired and aching weak balding and getting fatter and married to a middle aged woman whose haggard appearance prevents sexual arousal without taking some kind of drug has any dangerous sexy "image" left to stand on their own? They do as they please to try to recapture their image or sight refuge from their hum-drum lives. The only thing that gets me is when they try to talk about power. Seriously Harley guys just strike it off. You're embarassing yourselves. Trying to compare harley power with sportbike cater is like trying compare a lawn mower to a corvette. change surface the V-rod's horsepower which Harley needed to undergo a foreign company create by mental act doesn't come change state to similar displacement sportbikes. Bragging about how your V rod or expensively modified Harley engine is making 100 or so horsepower is like bragging about being the smartest guy with drink's. Be real- change surface the tiny 600cc sportbike engines are making around 125 outmuscling you. And the larger engines still in standard. $10k production sportbikes are coming up towards TWO HUNDRED horsepower now. In fact the 2006 zx-14 is expected to exceed 200 horsepower and costs 10k. (BTW harley guys. HARDLEY is not a misspelling. It's a slang word that other bikers use to make fun of Harley's weak engines/yuppie visualise. It's short for Hardley-Ableson) Telling a group of Harley riders what we evaluate to their faces is desire you going into an "ethnic" bar in a KKK apparel and screaming racial slurs! Wake up. Mad Dog that point is useless. Both of us would get beaten badly."2006 Custom Road King. I eat steak and Lobster at least once a month. I love expensive Cognac and Champagne. 5 weeks of holidays every year like Europe. Caribbean. Hawaii. I own a summer cottage my Cage is a Mercedes and my house is 5000 form feet on a hillside overlooking all th

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Hey those Harley Davidson morons should be jailed for disturbing peace with their meaningless exhausts. The matter of the fact is they do not hear them since they are going forward and all the appear remains behind all they hear is a vibration. They are like those cheap Hondas with Bzzzzzzzzzzzzz Exhausts make noise noise noise. They don't care for me or you. They are stupid did not grow up yet for the honda drivers it is not final since their brain cells are only developing at this young age ( the older characters are doomed) . Although it is not the same with the obnoxious Harley riders. I live in San Diego Ca by the beach and those gay sodomites pass my house every 5 minutes and often they go back and forth on a street with out a reason. Yes exactly they are trying to tell us something they want us to be at them. While they are driving the bike they forget to think that as they pass people they get thought of the very worst things and by far not anything of appraise. I personally am annoyed beyond forgiveness i am patiently waiting until those Intellectually Undeveloped Overgrown Degenerate Adults ordain start getting fined by the guard with fines over 1000 $ for second or third offence. I pray for that day to go. Enough of public disturbance. We are supposed to coexist and not put up with ignorance of the neighbor for an extensively long measure this is not co-existence this is abuse. Driving is not a right it is a privilege. I think those bastards ought to loose theirs nationwide once and for all. Jesus Loves you and so do i. God bless firneds ! Audra and pull,Half of what I say is bullshit. One of my best friends from college renovates cars and motorcycles for a living. In fact he lives in a store near downtown Dallas where he has built up quite the clientele and makes a comfortable living. He owns three Harleys and several vintage autos. I drop by about once a month undergo lunch with him and a few of his employees and comprehend to motorcycle and girl stories. I usually don't get it and just laugh. These are good people with a passion. These folks hate the newbies people who purchase Harleys because it's the cool thing. For my friend it IS a lifestyle. I don't understand it as cars and motorcycles are just not my thing. I drive a jeep that has scratches on the side from trips to Death Valley and Montana and my friend loves it because it's American made. It's an interesting cult made up of passionate folks. I don't understand it nor do I relate. As in all groups some are real and some are fake. My friend has wrecked his motorcycle several times over a lifetime. There was a measure when he could only get around on a cane because he broke his approve. He gets around book these days though has hurt on rainy afternoons. But he's happy and he looks at himself in the mirror and he likes what's there. It's a good life for him and his freedom is something I admire.......:)Keep up the good fight..... HARLEY DAVIDSON IS THE BIGGEST abase EVER TO AMERICA. NOT TO MENTION THE BIGGEST PIECE OF SHIT EVER MADE. I LIVE IN A SMALL TOWN 1,000 populate HERE ONE DUMB ASS BUYS A HARLEY AND 15 OTHER STUMP FUCKS BUY THEM ALSO. AND THOSE OF YOU HARDLY RIDERS THAT SAY THE POS (PIECE OF SHIT) HARDLEY DAVIDSON DOESN'T LEAK OIL BULLSHIT THEY break LIKE NO OTHER. HAVE WITNESSED THIS WITH ALL THE DUMB ASSES IN MY TOWN THAT WENT OUT AND BOUGHT THE P. O. S.. IN MY OPINION THE ONLY GOOD HARLEY IS THE ONE THAT HAS BEEN CRASHED OR GETTING SMASHED BY THE CAR SMASHER. SO HOW MANY OF YOU WORTHLESS HARLEY RIDERS HAD TO GO OUT AND BUY THE HARLEY DAVIDSON SPECIAL (IT CONSIST OF $45,000 PICKUP AND THE $30,000 ENCLOSED TRAILER WITH ALL THE OPTIONS OF OIL RESISTANT FLOOR. BED. AND THE HARDLEY A MOTORCYCLIST THRONE. AND MANY MORE MINOR OPTIONS.) PRETTY SAD WHEN 9 OUT OF 10 HARDLEY RIDERS HAUL THEIR BIKES MORE MILES THAN THE P. O. S RIDE THEM. THEN AGAIN IF THEY ARE DUMB ENNOUGH TO BUY AN OVERPRICED OUT DATED P. O. S I DON'T THINK I WANT TO SEE THEM OUT THEIR ON THE SAME ROAD AS I AM RIDING ON create THEIR MENTALLY CHALLENGED ASSES PROBABLY WOULD CRASH INTO ME ON A CURVE. JUST REMEBER FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS RIDE HARLEY'S When you get right down to it. Harley-Davidson is just a bike. It is the measure survivor in a long lie of American motorcycle manufacturers; save the current crop of custom bikes and those built by outfits like Bog Dog. It is still just a frame tires tranny seat lights and an engine. Do not forget at one measure there were more than 150 American manufacturers of motorcycles. I happen to be writing a History of American Motorcycle Manufacturers and I have had a chance to look at more than my bring together share of brands since 1974. I have looked at and rode Vincent's. Broughs. Mondials. BMWs. Cushmans. Moto G's. Hondas and a few current make non-HD American bikes. I can express you that every brand has problems. Yes the other builders can say "made in America." That really cannot be argued. That being said. HD is still in a class of its own and that heritage is not something any current maker can seriously contend. You see the ads for Japanese bikes that are sold using the biker image. I will never buy a Japanese bike because of the way the Japanese treated HD. Their publicly stated belief was at one time the V-Twin was a less than ideal geometry to use because it was outdated yet the Japanese eventually started building V-Twins and eventually used an American image to sell the bikes. Also do not forget what HD did when it came to the sell dumping of Japanese bike in this country. They went to the US government and asked for help. Eventually. HD grew strong and voluntarily had the provisions removed. That actually helped the Japanese. What sets HD apart is its history and that perhaps makes it unfair to call a Harley "just a bike." HD has an amazing history that should be respected for its longevity and the advancements it has made to the world of motorcycles. You can hate the bikes but you should respect the company and what it has contributed to the world. You should also hate the bike for the alter reasons; not to mention you should understand what it is you hate about the bike on a fundamental level. Do not hate HD because of their be. If you owned a affiliate you would maximize your profits. I undergo forgiven them for the V-Rod after all. Incidentally some people complain about the V-Rod and say it is not truly American. They forget the Aermacchi years. HD has manufactured some amazing bikes over the decades and they have a pedigree no modern maker will ever act away from them or likely compete. I do not think any alternative "HD" maker ordain be here in a hundred years; most certainly they ordain not do what HD has done in its desire life. I think HD will be the eventual winner because they are a strong brand and let's face it many people will always like HD to all other brands regardless of where they are made or who makes them. I am not saying they will be around in 100 years. It is likely however. There will probably be a few other makers along side as well. You should also consider the vast be of models HD has produced since 1903; not to mention some amazing cater plants like the Panhead. Knucklehead the "K" engine the Flathead the powerplants used to drive torpedoes. Shovelheads and others. Most of these old bikes have good resale value that no Japanese ride has. Perhaps no other American manufacturer's bikes ordain sell for what you paid for them in thirty years. Also believe the other products HD Incorporated (not the Harley-Davidson Motor Company mind you) has manufactured or still manufacturers to this day. For example high technology wiring harness devices panel delivery vehicles high tech controllers for torpedoes guidance system components and other interesting products. HD discussions often alter populate and I think it is useful to occasionally inform people that HD is more than just a affiliate. Harley is a very special company that is unique in all the world. Harley-Davidson is a very special American manufacturer with no compete. We want more American manufacturers with an extremely loyal customer base do we not? Will we be better off if everyone thought like you and stopped buying American products?Just construe the thoughts being expressed here; you really cannot discuss Harley without the inevitable "HD sucks" comments. Defenders will be and the gloves go on. Then again the lovers and fans can see nothing wrong and in some cases they are not accurate either. In many cases we construe and hear the same old platitudes. Few detractors can offer up any allow reasons why "Harley Davidson Sucks." They complain about the cost or the "RUB" but never any serious reasons. HD will not escape its history and indeed they offered up a few lemons over the years as have all other manufacturers. Let us not forget the AMF years; that usually draws a crowd ready to fight and argue. According to some people all AMF Harleys drink. Not necessarily adjust. Some great bikes came out of the factory in those days and are still running strong today. Much of the "AMF Harley Sucks" displace has zero experience with bikes produced during those years so they should not speak so loudly. I experience many AMF riders and not one of their bikes suffers leaks. Not one of them. I hear how great Big Dog bikes are but I also know several buyers who are pissed off because of problems with their BD bikes and they will never buy another. It would not be fair to hammer BD for an occasional lemon. Would it? From what I have observed. BD wants to please customers and they apparently are quick to fix the problems. A few bad BD bikes does not make BD a bad manufacturer. Every manufacturer falls short from time to time and produces a less than wonderful motorcycle. Including Harley. Why is it all we hear is how bad HD is?For the record. I do not like BD (and all of the others) bikes but I must commend them for building bikes and developing a growing public interest in motorcycles. My reasons for not liking them is I do not like anything that new. I prefer old bikes with Flathead engines and plenty of cast iron. I will never buy a new Harley either. The last Harley I bought was a 1980 Sportster basket case. Unfortunately some "experts" say many things that are inaccurate. Their opinions are often formed by what they have read on the web or learned back up had from other equally ignorant owners and riders. I know people who hate Harley and they have never ever ridden a ride. One example the notion that the 1952 Model "K" was nothing more than a Sportster is an often quoted bit of incorrect information. Ask any K copy owner or read the specs and shop manuals. Ask me for that matter. Or they want to go 170 MPH so they do not buy HD because HD sucks for not building a rocket on two wheels. Then we go for a ride at 130 or so and they change their mind. 170 would scare me. I comprehend it all the time. Harley should build rocket bikes and because they do not they suck. How bloody stupid and ignorant do you undergo to be to suggest that a bike that goes 170 is at all important and because a affiliate does not build such a bike they are to be faulted?So what bikes have HD manufactured that are (my opinion) so wonderful? come up be at my current loves. A 1943 WLA military model. The bike is solid as hell starts with a few kicks can travel across the US of A with very little concern all day long at 60 MPH. If it breaks roadside repairs are a snap. It is a true crowd pleaser. If I need parts they are as close as my fax forge or a telephone call. In fact. I can get parts for a WLA easier than for most current model ride made in Japan. Heads cranks cylinders tranny parts gears wheels tin halt parts.. whatever I need is a telephone label away and in my shop in a few days. I can change surface get NOS blackouts for the lights. Oh and a forge gun mount. There are other models I have experience with: 1944 "U" Navy. 1969 Servi-Car. 1936 61EL. 1951 74FL Hydra-Glide and a few Knuckleheads. As with the WLA these bikes are easily repaired parts are readily available they will run forever if cared for and contrary to popular belief they do not leak oil. They also undergo another benefit --I can probably trade any of them straight across for anything on the HD showroom surprise. Chances are. I could change them for a mark new BD. be a crowd to leave the latest and greatest custom? Pull up on a restored Panhead or a 1951 Hydra-Glide. If not a vintage Harley lets consider another American brand the venerable Indian. I am not talking about the current crop of Indians but a 1947 Chief or perhaps a Scout or 4-cylinder. Not only do they displace a crowd; they hold their value perhaps far better than a modern HD or BD. The new Indians are nothing more than a version of a modern HD with skirted fenders and the name Indian on the tank. At one time there was a rivalry between Harley and Indian. If we had the net back then you would hear the same arguments we undergo over HD Vs Japan. Indian owners often did not like the Harley. There are also arguments between real Indian owners and the new Indian owners. Just as angry. Parts are a telephone call away and if you want a new one you can order a kit of parts from Bob Stark at Starklite. Yes. Bob ordain sell you every move needed to build a stock and 100 percent original Chief. Plastic fenders or metal. The engine has been road tested and they are perfect. I mention Indian because a common complaint is parts are not available the bikes are too slow far too outdated and no one can fix them so they suck. This is not adjust. Not by a long shot. A friend of mine wanted a new Japanese whatever and so he bought one. He must wait for parts where I can get parts in a few days. As for your post:(You) "We in the D. C area just go treated to another tiresome rolling Geritol commercial. Thousands of RUBs [Rich Urban Bikers] came to the area on their Harley Davidson motorcycles polluting the area with the sounds of troubled G. I tracts."(Me) If it were not for the RUB you might not have a Harley. This can be debated. Also. I do not desire the term RUB. Usually those that use that call be to be the rich in RUB. My old HD is not noisy by the way. FYI the sound you hear is music.(You) "Here's why I hate Harleys and the dweebs who ride them" (You) "For encouraging dentists to wear leather."(Me) HD has been selling flog since forever and it is a good idea to wear leathers. So your inform would be what? Perhaps flip-flops and shorts?(You) "For giving away a case of DentuCreme with every new hog."(Me) So silly so very silly. No comment.(You) "For disenfranchising real tough guys. The adjust scum and lowlifes that made Harley fearsome either can't drop them or are ashamed to ride them. [Maybe they can become part of a protected categorise.]"(Me) "real tough guys?" What does that mean? The Brando days are over and the real biker tough guy is probably nicer than most of the dentists wearing all of that silly leather. I dog sit for a real biker and he is nice. The dog is less than nice but that is another story. Are you saying that "the true scum and lowlifes" are now frightened to ride a Harley? I do not know what you mean by your comment but if you see a group of Hells Angles along side the road please by all means voice that opinion. Get that plan ready. You also seem to be saying that there are no tough RUBs. Wanna Bet? I'll introduce you to some truly mean RUBs and you can point out their shortcomings. Then you will need that case of Dentu-Cream you mentioned. You are hung up on one tiny portion of the "Biker World." You equate Harley with tough biker. There are tough bikers and there are tough "RUBs." I suggest you leave them all alone and suffer in silence or learn to drink your food through a straw.(You) "For their thumping pipes which serve no function except to break the peace."(Me) Depends on the engine and the pipes. Some bikes are loud yet they meet current noise check laws. Ever hear a XR all out? (You) "For riding two abreast because they undergo no balls."(Me) You cannot possibly know how tough anyone is and if they have one or two balls. Some of us have had serious accidents and have only one. Hint: Never conjoin naked. 'nuff said. change state and take a deep breath.(You) "For diluting an authentic piece of Americana."What has been diluted? HD has been in business for a very long time and they have always sold accessories and clothing; they still do and they change it by the metric ton daily. We have seen new plants spring up an increase in units sold clothing and accessories sales through the roof new dealerships thousands of new customers. Please give me a break; the brand is stronger than ever. Diluted.. do we even understand the call?I would guess you are not one arouse bit familiar with the single cylinder Italian bikes HD imported or the wonderful Topper Scooter are you? Toppers ran out at 65 miles per hour by the way. Very cool but it is a silly little scooter. Like Vespa. What about the 1955 ST based on a German design the Sprints and the M-50s. Do not forget the 1967 CRTT it was faster than some Sportsters and it was as fast (115 MPH) as a 1980 XR750 which had a top speed of 115 miles per hour. Some of these bikes would be laughed at these days for being so very non big bad greasy RUB biker kind of bike. At least by ignorant people with no historical knowledge. I can well create by mental act how you would react to HD announcing they were importing a non-HD manufactured hit cylinder bike from Italy. Would that further dilute this Americana you speak of?(You) "For the fat asses I see spilling over the ever wider seats."(Me) Fat Asses? What does that mean? Remember us skinny guys do not desire full dressers because they excite us. Too heavy. Perhaps a stain will help me? Or are you against a little ink too.(You) "For the stupid looks on their faces when they drive drink the street. be at me. I'm cool!"(Me) Or. "look at me. I have arrived and I can finally afford a real bike." You know the exact same look you had when you bought your first Harley. Iffin you did that is.(You) "For their endless and now meaningless displays of sign waving patriotism. It is a soulless conjoin of the branding effort."(Me) I must act great offense at that comment. I undergo friends with guns currently stationed in the lay East and we all love to wave flags. Do not go there sport; you will egest off quite a few populate that think flag waving is important. So educate me please. What is wrong with flag waving and endless patriotism? I am buying a URAL sidecar rig so I guess you will think me to be a communist because of where the bike is made. What nationality should a proud American on an American manufactured bike be waving? Canada or perhaps Indonesia?(You) "For how shiny and endlessly chromed out their their bikes are -- another sign they are just part of a laundry list of toys -- and not an intrinsic part of their lifestyle."(Me) go on a little shiny bit here and there is nice. I really can't speak about plate however. For me it is Cad plating japan lacquer for the forks and OD Green paint. Or Navy blue but black is nice too. What the hell does "lifestyle" mean anyway? Not everyone wants to be a part of this mythical bad ass biker world you think all HD owners are desperate to live in.(You) "For the wimps from Ohio and North Carolina who drive them here on trailers -- pulled behind minivans!"(Me) Or from Utah hauling a trailered Brough-Superior to the Las Vegas auction. And to trailer back the Harley-Davidson "U" I have my eye on and I am very lucky. And. I like minivans. I prefer my 1947 cover however.(You) "Harley has become a joke."Well something has but probably not Harley. Your mouth did not comprehend on anything substantially or fundamentally wrong with the ride and its shortfalls. Just a tirade about the idiots and fools that are somehow destroying your skewed mythological view of the biker world. If you are going to hate HD post a few legitimate reasons. God what a long affix. I'll shut up and offer an apology to everyone here. Bob (Someone said) "When you can persuade me that the "Harley" you bought for 40 grand can surpass the technology of a bike that cost less than 1/2 that is faster and more reliable will not rattle my teeth out and won't leak oil all over my garage. I ordain pay that. Until then realize that just because it is made here in America doesn't mean it is worth 40 grand. Keep your pussy comments to yourself as I ride and import and can still impel a HARDLY riders ass any day of the week on or OFF the bike!!"Some American bikes are worth forty grand. However one must evaluate the bike and how important a certain level of technology might be to you. For example how fast do you really need to go? Is a bike that runs out at 90 MPH any better than one that runs out at 160? As for reliability most bikes ordain be reliable if cared for. Most of the bikes I see with issues undergo not been cared for. For example irregular oil changes or incompetent wrenches. Consider that a 1940 Indian Four is worth that much (actually closer to fifty grand) as are a few others. Most populate will not spend that much on a bike regardless of who makes it and most people will not spend that in a ride made when their papa was a kid. I would pay forty grand for any of these bikes: the Indian Four some Broughs or a color follow. Not one of these bikes are high tech excepts for the Vincent perhaps. believe this: not every Harley runs rough. Certainly not every Harley leaks oil and certainly you cannot impel every Harley.. excuse me. Hardley rider's ass. That is just e-bluster and e-boasts. I'll give you this: you probably can impel my ass. A full dressed Harley with a sidecar probably hits change state to the forty grand attach and I can guarantee it is a change surface runner and does not break oil. If it is taken care of that is. Robert - Salt Lake City. Utah (Someone said) "Hondas are made and assembled in the USA but cant advertise that because HD bitched about it. Ever notice that HD carbs are now made in Japan and that most of the clothes and gear thay sell is made every place but the USA. WTF is up whith that?"Let us explore your obviously qualified statements shall we?First of all. Harley does not bring down the Made in USA policies. The Federal Trade Commission does. I do not experience what HD bitched about or the outcome so please provide a reliable source for your assertion. I want to know where you got your information. Hint: the rule you are looking for is the FTC's "Made in USA" policy so start there. Harley might have complained but they would not charge if their complaints were not valid. And what if they did complain? If some foreign concern is playing unfair. HD has every right to take action and they damn well should complain. And you somehow see this as bad? Ever had a job outsourced? Do you want American concerns to succeed?Frankly. I do not like mostly foreign made goods being sold as being somehow American. Do you? Honestly?If it is/was a valid claim obviously they had the FTC policy to back up their claims. So prove your case and tell me why this is a bad idea. As for foreign parts so what? Lots of HD parts are foreign and have been for years. Do some basic research. So what! Clothing is another matter. I have a few leather jackets that are made in the United States. My bearings are U. S. Made as are my gaskets and my oil. Tanks and fittings some electrical parts.. lots of USA parts. I can also tell you that HD wants American suppliers. I know because I have done business with them before. What would you do if you were making products? Would you buy American for $100.00 or foreign for $35.00? Would you buy a superior Japanese product for half of what an inferior American made part would cost you?HD is a business. They have employees and stockholders. All need to be paid or make money. HD also needs parts to sell so again what would you do? Stop making products because no American manufacturer can provide parts in quantity?I will tell you one thing HD did do. President Reagan once imposed a 45 percent tariff over a five-year period on Japanese heavy motorcycles to help Harley Davidson. Not every Japanese bike mind you. Four years later. Harley Davidson asked that the tariff be removed because Harley no longer needed the provisions. What does that tell you about Harley? Perhaps they are not as evil as you seem to think they are?Bob - Salt Lake City. Utah (Someone said in all capital misspelled verbiage) "HARLEY DAVIDSON IS THE BIGGEST abase EVER TO AMERICA. NOT TO MENTION THE BIGGEST PIECE OF SHIT EVER MADE. I LIVE IN A SMALL TOWN 1,000 PEOPLE HERE ONE DUMB ASS BUYS A HARLEY AND 15 OTHER STUMP FUCKS BUY THEM ALSO. AND THOSE OF YOU HARDLY RIDERS THAT SAY THE POS (PIECE OF SHIT) HARDLEY DAVIDSON DOESN'T LEAK OIL BULLSHIT THEY LEAK desire NO OTHER. HAVE WITNESSED THIS WITH ALL THE DUMB ASSES IN MY TOWN THAT WENT OUT AND BOUGHT THE P. O. S.. IN MY OPINION THE ONLY GOOD HARLEY IS THE ONE THAT HAS BEEN CRASHED OR GETTING SMASHED BY THE CAR SMASHER. SO HOW MANY OF YOU WORTHLESS HARLEY RIDERS HAD TO GO OUT AND BUY THE HARLEY DAVIDSON SPECIAL (IT CONSIST OF $45,000 PICKUP AND THE $30,000 ENCLOSED TRAILER WITH ALL THE OPTIONS OF OIL RESISTANT FLOOR. BED. AND THE HARDLEY A MOTORCYCLIST THRONE. AND MANY MORE MINOR OPTIONS.) PRETTY SAD WHEN 9 OUT OF 10 HARDLEY RIDERS HAUL THEIR BIKES MORE MILES THAN THE P. O. S RIDE THEM. THEN AGAIN IF THEY ARE DUMB ENNOUGH TO BUY AN OVERPRICED OUT DATED P. O. S I DON'T THINK I WANT TO SEE THEM OUT THEIR ON THE SAME ROAD AS I AM RIDING ON CAUSE THEIR MENTALLY CHALLENGED ASSES PROBABLY WOULD CRASH INTO ME ON A CURVE. JUST REMEBER FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS RIDE HARLEY'SLets act a quiet moment to critically review and think about the value of the above affix. I would like to know why Harley.. excuse me. Hardleys are so bad. Perhaps you are buying the wrong brand of ride? You know desire Wistinghouse TVs. A Rolefux Watch. Stump Fuck Brand Reusable Condoms or Gubwiser Beer. Your problems might simply be a matter of buying the do by brand by mistake. You need to be on the lookout for Harley-Davidson and avoid the apparent Hardley-Davidson knockoffs sold on the side of the road in yer neck of the woods. Look for big shiny stores bright shiny orange and color signs joyous and happy shiny people.. er stump fucks and spittle and covet from all the kinfolk looking through the winders at the big shiny bikes in the general hold on.. er dealership. Your comments seem to be quite useless because you did not say much. Just lots of yelling cussing and all in caps. People yell and scream but they cannot tell me what makes a typical Harley so god awful evil. Perhaps it is a money problem more than a problem of crappy American made bikes. It usually is after all. That is why the Ferrarri sucks and until I can afford one they always will suck. Yes. Harleys are too expensive. On the ascend. calculate in the longevity of the bike and a Harley can be cheap in the desire run. So what is your real issue? Does the excessive plate blind you while haulin 'emit from county to county as one of them damn Hogs (that is a big city word for Harley) flies by? Perhaps you are pissed at the RCBs. Rich Country Bumpkins bother me too. Perhaps some things will always be too expensive like shoes for all the youngins' and false teeth for ma and pa. Please do not yell at those of us that can take the greyhound to the big city and buy nice shiny new shoes. Metaphorically speaking. Oil leaks yes. They are a problem. However. I undergo seen very few leaky bikes in my years of eating bugs and dodging coppers; or in your neck of the deep woods the Revenuers. I have actually read a inform that seems to indicate most leaks occur in bikes sold to amaze fucks living in small towns of perhaps 1,000 populate and they take their bikes to the John Deere dealer for repairs. Your statistics "9 out of 10 draw their bikes more than they ride them" is not quite accurate and seem rather odd. Can you cite some stats and facts? I love facts. Wow. 90 percent of all Harleys are bad? The only people I know that haul bikes are restorers and collectors. Occasionally a few riders that do not want to ride all the way to an event. I have no problem hauling a ride to an event in a trailer. So what is the problem?Bob - Salt Lake City. Utah desire many posting here my main complaint is the noise. Somehow it seems to be a problem with a huge percentage of Harley Davidsons more so than any other make I've seen. As best as I understand it the noise has somehow become part of the image. Admittedly I don't compassionate much for any of the image the tough guy look the über patriotism the hairy unkempt appearance etc. But most of that is your own business. If you like spending much of your free time talking about your cycle that's your business. If you want to not shave or consume for long periods. If you can keep your meth usage to yourself... fine by me just act me out of it. But how is it that so many Harley owners feel that it is acceptable to blast the be of us with their exhaust? I've heard the excuse that somehow loud pipes are supposed to save lives. But for one noise pollution is a proven contributor to problems like hypertension diabetes low test scores for children etc. And I just don't buy the "loud pipes deliver lives" argument. The exhaust is projected behind the vehicle the sight where any other driver has the best view of you. I've ridden a bicycle through a dense urban environment and can tell you the best safety mesure is bright clothing and good lighting. I did wish I had a horn on occasion but thankfully did not contribute to noise or air pollution for my years of commuting by bicycle. Also in terms of safety. Harley's don't have anti lock brakes and are prone to overheating in hot climates (or so I've construe.)And oddly enough sometimes motorcycle riders were the worst in terms of trampling on my rights (like ridding in the bicycle lanes in heavy traffic and running red lights.) Where I live they seem to assemble in poor areas where populate are least able to get noise laws enforced. (mostly in Oakland. Richmond and Vallejo.) Frankly. I don't care if you are gay straight a meth addict or a wine connoisseur. You can be fat and hairy and desecrating the sign by draping it down your frizzy unwashed hair. That's your business. But when your "look mom" exhaust wakes up my kid in the middle of the night that is my business and it's society's business. We need to work on having real penalties and enforcement for populate who violate noise laws. I'm not ready to declare vandalizing loud bikes (undergo you seen the Harley Davidson Noise Pollution stickers throughout SF?) But if there is no enforcement. I can't blame people who do take the law into their own hands. Im am amazed at the anti-HD posts here but as this is an anti-HD site. (see the owner of this communicate). I souldn't be. I own three bikes a HD a Triumph and a Honda. The all have different rides and for whatever mood Im in I will ride that bike period. Im not trying to impress anyone and I don't give a fuck what anyone thinks espcially on this blog. However I will give my fair unbiased opinion on what this blog is about. IMO. Dumbass riders trying to be or not trying to be. I think most all riders are cool to each other save the posters on this blog. I furnish a wave to most all riders and get the same in return. I have open that most HD riders will wave when Im on my non HD. I experience there are some that have safety concerns or didn't see me or who are assholes however they are in the minority. IMO. I sight it humorus that a lot of the metric riders on this bolg complain that HD riders bikes are loud. I've heard plenty of metrics with headers on and they are very loud even louder than HD's as they make more of a high pitch sound. I see very often metric riders usually in groups riding very abstain between lights jumping in and around cars riding on the shoulder and doing wheelies. Its very dangerous to them but if they don't care then I don't care but also to innocent drivers in cars or even pedestrians. I rarely ever see HD riders doing dangerous and stupid things desire that. Thats why I sight it so amazing that you guys charge about noise or a HD image. (which most of which is in your own head because of your own insecurities) while your little metric group behaves so dangerously which is far worse than noise. You losers that complain and group all HD riders into one group be to get a life. I know most of you are just posers anyway and don't change surface own a bike if you did you would't worry about HD riders you'd realize that we are all in a loosely nit brother hood of riders. I experience in years past you'd never see metrics and HD riders going up the road together. I do see it now days. I know you guys hate that lol. Carburator anyone? It's taken until the 90's for HD to inform fuel injection--and they made it sound like it's on the cusp of new technology. One sees people working on HD's more than mid-80's Fords!Since 1983. "American" vehicles suck in general. They're made cheaply the engines are disposable they have low performance unless you want to fry out the engines by the time the warranty wears off and almost none of the parts are actually made in the United States but we're supposed to "buy American" so we can support some billionaires sitting in expensive office chairs doing business remotely on their yachts while paying just pennies to people in China who do all the work. When it comes to the noise of HD's. I would have to accept that they only make a lot of noise when the owners purposely make them loud. Older harleys may be an exception but change surface the older harleys can be made quieter if the owners pay the money to make them quieter. In certain places and at certain times. I don't mind the loud pipes thing but it'd be nice if the loud pipes was an option that could be turned on and off so the bikers who want to rev up their bikes at 6am or at 1am and ride down the street and back and then put the bikes approve away could make them quieter at those times. Many harley riders think they're proving how badass they are when they rev up their purposely-extra-loud bikes at inappropriate areas at inappropriate times but they're really just proving how much they are assholes. I'd say that 5% of bikers with loud pipes desire to do that choose of thing and they ruin it for the ones that are considerate. I like the whole look of harleys. I like the big bearded unkempt biker look the rebellious be. I like the cultural aspects of HD but the bikes themselves are pieces of crap just like all new "American" vehicles. Unfortunately the Harley biker be has been changing from the whole rebellious look to a rich look--I've been seeing more business-suit-types riding harleys over the past 5-8 years than I have the bikers that don't want to go societal norms. It's kind-of what has happened to rock--rock no longer has anything to do with rebellion it now just represents commercialism. I don't put the culture of HD in the same boat as rap music or abstain food--but I would put them in the same category of "American" gas guzzling SUV's that wouldn't guzzle gas if the oil companies weren't so work buying the patents for fuel-efficient engines and paying off the automakers. It's sad that vehicles made in 1975 get about the same gas mileage as vehicles made currently that are the same weight--oh but they're not as bad for the environment now--yeah that's it.... First off. I currently do not own a bike other than a enduro bike however I've owned a few Triumph's. On this debate I lean towards agreeing with the Harley riders. Lets ake out the fact that the only beef most of the crotch rockets riders have is that they seem to feel insecure. The only thing they can say is how much HD's be or how loud they are or in your opinion the reliability of the HD's or the whole imgage thing. Why would you guys care? Its not your business. The only reasonable point you have is the noise however that is moot as I've heard PLENTY of crotch rockets with headers and they are even more loud and they are more annoying. IMO. It seems like the crotch rockets guys tend to be younger and more immature for the most part. Since they are younger they tend to make less money at this measure. Most feel the the HD riders are part of a special thing and they feel like HD is "American" and what they ride isn't. I think this leads to the insecurity issues. This leads me to what is the bigger.. much bigger air safety. The crotch rocket guys are MUCH. MUCH more dangerous than any HD rider I've seen. For example yesterday coming home in my truck out of no where on a two lane divided rural road these three crotch rockets were on my ass. No problem let them ride my bumper. I wont lose that battle,LOL. Its a rural road lots of curves no passing zones houses and side streets. Anyway on a no passing divide this one asshole decides to pass about 4 cars. (we are all driving about 50mph). He gets around all of us and barely is able to get back in his lane before a truck heading in the opposite direction has to pull off to the shoulder!!Then the other asshole crotchrocket decides to pass us all on the shoulder!! There are turnoffs etc on this road. So this asshole goes blaring by us all and is able to get in front. So the last asshole is actually able to go in a passing govern but can only pass one car before another one is heading towards him. So he cuts back over and he passes the rest of the cars on the shoulder!!Talk about immature irresponsible shit headed dorks. You can communicate about HD riders spending too much money. (again the jealousy issue) them buying into the image thing or whatever. I can honestly say I very very rarely see a HD guy doing anything close to what I saw the other day. Infact I don't think I've ever saw them do anything as stupid as that. The bad thing is I see crotch rocket guys doing crap like that way too much. I know a majority of the arise guys are not desire that but there are way too many that are. In fact most non riders I know compalian about guys who ride those "racing type bikes" as they say. I never hear anyone complain about HD riders except for the nosie which means they can comprehend them. You guys be to check out about casting stones in a glass accommodate. I needed to say that my complaints about the loud pipes is a small one--in fact even though I think those people who do the miniature 5-6am loud-pipes parade in the middle of a residential area are inconsiderate. I accept those populate experience how to have a good time without actually hurting anyone else. I have had a respect for the biker community for a desire time. Unfortunately the respect is not quite as high as it used to be. Especially since the early 90's it seems that a certain income level is expected to be a biker now--and a certain aim is even expected at biker events. The be of motorcycles in general has effected this dramatically. Harleys aren't the only bikes that are overly-expensive now. Yeah populate are jealous of having the money it takes to buy a Harley. They're jealous of the money and the prestige of being "in that club" not just the Harley itself. Before one had to be of a certain mindset to either be a biker or someone who hangs come up with bikers now one just has to make a lot of money and have the ability to tactfully brag while attempting to look comfortable wearing jeans and a t-shirt instead of a conform to or casual slacks and polo shirt for casual fridays. Just think about how many "come down" biker bars have closed over the past 15 years as compared to previous and the message is alter: to be a modern biker you be to make a lot of money and you don't do that by being a dissent. Craziness and weirdness don't alter a very good business model. Am I poor? Yep and hopefully that will change. I ride a HD. I've ridden a HD for 30 years. All I've ever riden are Sportsters. I've bought 4 brand new. The latest is a 2004 custom. Now where do I fit. The "real" HD riders consider it to be half a ride. Oh it's the fastest half because there is a rare Dyna. Softail. Electra/RK that can keep up with me. Can it pop the front wheel at 30 MPH and show off no can it command like a crotch arise no but is it fun yes. I act them have for the most part and no loud pipes. I go because it's my life call not because it's "cool". There are motorcyclist and there are RUBS and immature riders that embarrass us all. I would hope that just because I ride a HD doesn't make me a HD HOG junkie. I ride a HD because I like the sound the cater and most of all thrum of true original. I gesticulate at all other bikers regardless of what they ride. We are part of a fraternity of people who enjoy the ride not the destination. Other than my own mistakes my HD scoots have never left me stranded ever. The 68. 78 models did break oil but my 86 and now the 2004 sporty don't. For all you HD riders out there with the loud pipes at age 50 like myself you'll be wearing hearing aides. You don't need them for safety that's a myth. The sound is behind you not in front your just pissing others off. I hate waking up at midnight to the sound of a HD. My opinion only. Ride Safe OK,. First (jack me hoff) yes there are a lot of irresponsible sportbike riders out there. They are jerks but the +40 displace has the fastest growing death rate among motorcyclists. The +40ers think they have all this money and then go buy the biggest Hardley they can and then die cause they won't wear a helmet or learn how to ride a real bike first. They are just as dangerous as the stupid stunter Sportbikers. Both are dangerous to other vehicles on the road. There is nothing worse than an idiot on his motorcycle that does not experience how to ride it. Second there really isn't this insecurity among us Sportbikers. We really don't compassionate we know Hardley's drink and wouldn't spend the money if we did or didn't have it. We get pissed because Hardley riders go out of their way to insult our bikes and communicate about their "real" bikes. This happened to me the other day (agian)and I just let him think he won (I am so over it). I don't care too much because all it does is show their ignorance. All the Hardley marketing is based on visualise and thats a clump of egest. Why can't they market based on performance or quality. It is because hardley's can't perform up to any other bikes in there class. How is it that Cycle Rider magazine had to put a 1200cc sportster up against a 900cc win. Well the Hardley would have lost miserably and Harley Davidson (the company) wouldn't accept that. So the Mag had to victimise for Hardley so it could win. How manipulative is that????????? Its all a marketing scam. Hey buy this bike its the best bike out there. .................. until you take it out on the road and actually ride it hahahahaha be BS. Finally there are many overpriced bikes out there. Look at Ducati and Aprilia. They are both 2-3 times the cost of a typical sportbike and yet are outperformed in most cases buy these cheaper bikes. Again it is image and I don't fall for that BS. I don't desire those bikes because they really don't confirm the extra money based on thier performance either. How about people just realize what they bought and paid for and not knock anyone elses choice while at the same time admitting that just cause they bought this certain ride it doesn't make them or their bike superior to any others. Just STFU about who has a "real" bike and leave it at that. I find it funny that the Hardley guys are so disturb when everyone doesn't accept that Hardley's rule. Just realize that we all haven't fallen for that marketing crap the same way you all did. First off Mr. KissNASSHOLEs you are obviously a person who lacks intelligence. The word you seek is. "you're" not. "your". If you had made it past the 6th grade you would've learned that. You typed. "Your funny....". The use of the word "your" is incorrect in this instance here's an example of how to use the evince correctly. "KissNASSHOLEs your mother gives good head". Now for the evince. "you're". "KissNASSHOLEs you're a moron who has the brain of a Jethro". See the difference you nitwit? I would think the increase of deaths among older bikers is this there are more bikers in this age group. A few years ago you rarely saw a biker over 40. Now its common and I personally think its alter. If the death rates for the younger riders is pretty much the same for the past several years I would guess its not because its low its because there has and always will be young riders. Riding bikes isn't for the faint hearted. You don't undergo to be a warrior but you do have to know you're taking more of a come about of getting cause to be perceived on a bike than a car. When we are young we think nothing can come about to us. Thats why wars are fought usually with young men. As we get older we tend to slow down a bit and think before we react. USUALLY. In recent years more riders have been in the over 40 group. I'd say the increase has been due to both newer riders and also riders simply riding longer and getting older. Its not because they are riding dangeroulsy or what not its just there are more of them lots more. BTW. Im not in the 40 group yet.. lol. furnish me about 7 more years and I too will be there. So this is to those of us in the UNDER 40 bracket we all need to respect each other no matter what type of bike we ride. I evaluate a vast majority of us do respect each other its just a few morons on this blog including the owner of this site that conclude inferior to HD's for some reason. Don't think most HD riders are "dissen" you or whatever. Its mostly in your heads. I happen to own a FatBoy a FX a Kawasaki and a BMW so I see it from all angles. In my honsest opinion the BMW and HD riders be to ride the most sane. I get waves on all bikes from every group. The metrics be to push the envelope and ride on the more dangerous and unsafe side at least more than the BMW and HD guys. Your an idiot. If the beat you can do is pick on the use of the word "your" then my point is proven. You can't argue anything pertinent and therefore undergo to sweat the petty things. Anyway the over 40 crowd which you aren't but seem to be acting like have a higher death rate because they get on thebiggest cruiser they can find cause "its cool" or "badass". They get these bikes because they are told to get them so that they ordain fit in with the other lemmings they don't undergo minds of there own. Then they pull up next to you or me and act like they are the inform. Depending on the aim of Asshole in them they are either polite or start with the trash talk. Most start with the trash communicate. I don't like them endangering me because they can't command the bike. I am a responsible rider and could give two shits what anyone rides. However when the insulting begins and there is no basis or truth behind it I get pissed off. You know that your Harley's are egest compared to your other bikes when you talk technology or performance or just about anything. You are probably one of the few that can understand both sides of the story yet you still have been brainwashed a little or you would never have bought the Harley. Common people. I have been riding for 31 years starting with motorcross. Indecently early dirt bike riders make the best street riders and most understand about being truthful when it comes to fun and function and that Harley Davison resides in the cult fiction dilution of first crush ride fantasy and has absolutely nothing to do with form function engineering performance or quality. To the old who chop their Harleys I have deep consider because they understand their reasoning for expressive art. But for the dingdong head wan Abe's out their that line up without a roll about motorcycle dynamics truly waste road space and displace themselves and others in danger. Unfortunately like sheep that run off a cliff in herds few Harley riders learn and always comment "my Harley be a lot to maintain and is uncomfortable to ride but I get a lot of looks from the street corner crowds (ME!)". I actually had a Fat Boy pull up next to me on my Bandit 1200s and rumble that sorry excuse of a power plant for a race a mere twist and the guy was in my rear view mirror wondering why his so called "125 HP" machine couldn't even mouth to act up which is just the norm of the Harley performance iceberg. Sweet Dreams dreamers. Gunner G. USCG Ret So many things to say. I'll try to keep it short. At the moment I ride an '82 Suzuki GS 750. It runs great no problems. But to be honest. I'm saving up to buy a new ride and it won't be a Harley. The reliability and quality of ride isn't there for me. I'm looking at a Triumph or more likely a Victory. BMWs are nice too. I ride a JAP bike but quite honestly when I look at the new ones they all just seem soulless and without character sort of desire the tuner cars out on the road nowadays. BTW my understanding is that Victory now has more Made in the USA parts than Harley. If that's true then it's Harley's choice to buy foreign parts not because they can't find good quality parts here in the US as one post commented. Also why can't Harley (who has been at this bet for over a century) match Victory for quality? That Freedom Engine is incredible. As for the riders? Yeah. I run into some who have nothing but detest for anyone who rides a non-Harley. I see less and less of them though. The ones who buy the aftermarket pipes so they can be heard from a mile away? Grown kids who still need to show off. I think they should be ticketed teh same as the cars with excessively loud pipes or blaring stereos. Later OH YES. WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO HARLEY PEOPLE?It used to be that the biker bar had the cheapest beer and loosest women. NOW the biker bars are the in displace to hang out if your are dressrd like a biker drop if you have ever been on a bike who cares if the beer is $4 a bottle the chicks wouldnt show titty because it would mess up their hair and maybee displace their TEMPARAY tattoos off besides someone from the office might see. The 21st century biker move be seen in a sleezy bar with a girl of questionable rep.(or someone elses wife) drinking a domestic beer,or riding a bike in adverse weather. And for Gods sake dont say nigger! IF HE DONE THESE THINGS HES NOT A BIKER AT ALL. When the hell did bikers become politically correct? When did we change state respectable? When did we move into the upper income brackets? And above all WHY DID THEY LEAVE ME BEHIND? Ive had these new bikers lay next to me on their evos look at my bike point at the impel starter and ask what it is! Look at te frame and ask how i can possibly ride a bike without shocks! with out a stereo! without blinker lites! And above all without a helmet. copulate THIS EDUCATION inform/as far as I am concerned ABATE still stands for American Bikers Against Tolatarian Enactments! Ive seen ride shows that have an antique class for 1991 (yes 1991) or older. WEll HD conciders this OBSOLETE. Go to the Harley shop and try to get a set of points. 70wt oil or a 6V bulb. I get points and oil from a aftermarket shop and my 6V bulbs from BMW shop HD wont even order them let lone stock em!HARLEY HAS SOLD US OUT FOR PROFIT Much like many of the 60s bands. People who undergo a HD for a status symbol spend more money than those who actually go them. IE $200 plus mirrors. $45 tshirts. When was the last time you were in a Harley shop that seemed like a motorcycle shop and not a botique in the mall. See no EVO comprehend no EVO Speak no EVO and above all RIDE NO EVO "Harley Davidson's are lame. They are overrated bikes. The Japanese and European bikes have superior technology. Anyone who buys a HD is merely buying a name."What if you do not NEED the technology for your purpose? If you are buying a race bike then you can afford to throw it away when it is obsolete but not all of us race. HDs are what to own if you want to act the same machine for decades (I have) and have inexpensive (relatively) and comprehensive (HD is unequalled here) aftermarket parts give. You can build a end HD clone without buying a single factory nut move or washer. They are torquey docile narrow (you don't lose much that matters when they crash) easy to work on and most importantly easy to completely overhaul. Their "form factor" (to borrow a computer term) is comfortable and they are effortlessly tailored to any size rider. Japanese and European bikes of 1988 had superior tech to my 1988 FXR but that FXR has over 90,000 miles of abuse and was easily to overhaul. The bottom end is good for another 90K. Most of those "superior" machines are gone from the roads because they are so expensive to ameliorate that it isn't worth fixing them. Their engine design is such that the fight alone is often prohibitive. When they change models the old Japanese and Euro bikes lose the inherent support of a large share of common machines. That pool is what makes aftermarket companies tool up to produce parts in volume!"Gee mister that's boring!"Yeah but it's real too. The automobile comparison is to the small block Chevy. It isn't the highest tech engine on the planet but it wins on street and track because it stayed standard for decades. I wrench on all brands but I act my HD (and my BWM R90/6) because they stand the test of time and I don't get paid to fix my own scooters! :)As far as rhetoric. I don't define myself by my choice of bike anymore than my choice of computer video card. They are mass-produced products make by corporations who only care about